(October 18, 2023 at 6:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yet another instance of not being able to keep your story straight.  A good example of the limits of free will even assuming there is such a thing.  A compulsive liar will lie.  The lie may not help them, the lie will often shame them, they may not even want to lie - but....they will lie.

Why would I be lying about this? You're not important enough to lie to.

Indeed. Why would a compulsive liar lie? The answer is usually nothing to do with the lie itself or any active decision on the part of the liar. That's why we call it compulsive.

(October 18, 2023 at 6:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Indeed.  Why would a compulsive liar lie?  The answer is usually nothing to do with the lie itself or any active decision on the part of the liar.  That's why we call it compulsive.

It's because we don't give a fuck. People can't handle the truth to begin with. Even then, we don't lie about absolutely everything.

aaaand scene.

(October 18, 2023 at 5:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think it's exactly clear what an existent free will would do, or how effective it would be at whatever that is.  Can we freely will not to be short and irritable when we're hungry?  Seemingly not.  Or, if we prefer, even though we can freely will not to do that, it happens anyway, in spite of that decision.

Well, I was not trying to say free will of any kind existed. I was just saying people, for reasons I stated earlier, of course, show more of a lack of free will instead of having it; especially religious people and fans of real life people and maybe fictional characters, too.

As for free will itself, I will say that LinuxGal, a person you may know who goes to these forums, said it best; she said that if all factors were shunned aside and acts of pure will were done, it would be this, and I quote her "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.".

But I do think free will cannot exist anyway. With so many factors affecting our lives (from internal, mental, physical, external, etc.), the will is not really free, and I am sure the mind does not work like some people think to actually have free will. The universe is more deterministic as the user that goes here, FrustratedFool told me. It seems that the universe, as well as the mind and actual choices, are of cause and effect rather than actual free will.

People just assumed there is a thing called free will, did they not? I do think that assumption can be proven false with science. However the universe and the human mind works, I can safely think free will is not a thing as many would like to believe. They may want to hear that free will exists when reality and science may say otherwise, but you can you can't really refute reality and science. Plus, I think what about human having more animal-like behaviors also shows a lack of free will in humans.

I don't know if it's fair to say that we just assumed it. More that we came up with an inaccurate explanation for the content of our experience with the limited information our brain provides about the mechanism of that content.

(October 19, 2023 at 3:25 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't know if it's fair to say that we just assumed it.  More that we came up with an inaccurate explanation for the content of our experience with the limited information our brain provides about the mechanism of that content.

What I said about humans assuming about free will was just a guess. Still, free will might as well be an illusion, and though we are socially and technologically advanced, we humans might as well not have more free will than any other animal in the animal kingdom, or living things altogether.

(October 19, 2023 at 12:02 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote:

(October 18, 2023 at 5:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think it's exactly clear what an existent free will would do, or how effective it would be at whatever that is.  Can we freely will not to be short and irritable when we're hungry?  Seemingly not.  Or, if we prefer, even though we can freely will not to do that, it happens anyway, in spite of that decision.

Well, I was not trying to say free will of any kind existed. I was just saying people, for reasons I stated earlier, of course, show more of a lack of free will instead of having it; especially religious people and fans of real life people and maybe fictional characters, too.

As for free will itself, I will say that LinuxGal, a person you may know who goes to these forums, said it best; she said that if all factors were shunned aside and acts of pure will were done, it would be this, and I quote her "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.".

But I do think free will cannot exist anyway. With so many factors affecting our lives (from internal, mental, physical, external, etc.), the will is not really free, and I am sure the mind does not work like some people think to actually have free will. The universe is more deterministic as the user that goes here, FrustratedFool told me. It seems that the universe, as well as the mind and actual choices, are of cause and effect rather than actual free will.

People just assumed there is a thing called free will, did they not? I do think that assumption can be proven false with science. However the universe and the human mind works, I can safely think free will is not a thing as many would like to believe. They may want to hear that free will exists when reality and science may say otherwise, but you can you can't really refute reality and science. Plus, I think what about human having more animal-like behaviors also shows a lack of free will in humans.

The "man can do what he wills" line is from Schopenhauer.

(October 19, 2023 at 3:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(October 19, 2023 at 12:02 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Well, I was not trying to say free will of any kind existed. I was just saying people, for reasons I stated earlier, of course, show more of a lack of free will instead of having it; especially religious people and fans of real life people and maybe fictional characters, too.

As for free will itself, I will say that LinuxGal, a person you may know who goes to these forums, said it best; she said that if all factors were shunned aside and acts of pure will were done, it would be this, and I quote her "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.".

But I do think free will cannot exist anyway. With so many factors affecting our lives (from internal, mental, physical, external, etc.), the will is not really free, and I am sure the mind does not work like some people think to actually have free will. The universe is more deterministic as the user that goes here, FrustratedFool told me. It seems that the universe, as well as the mind and actual choices, are of cause and effect rather than actual free will.

People just assumed there is a thing called free will, did they not? I do think that assumption can be proven false with science. However the universe and the human mind works, I can safely think free will is not a thing as many would like to believe. They may want to hear that free will exists when reality and science may say otherwise, but you can you can't really refute reality and science. Plus, I think what about human having more animal-like behaviors also shows a lack of free will in humans.

The "man can do what he wills" line is from Schopenhauer.

I see. I did not realize that earlier, so I was not entirely sure if LinuxGal was quoting someone. Thanks, though.

(October 18, 2023 at 6:06 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Everyone always does what they prefer. Literally one hundred percent of the time. It would never be any different. So it's like, we have free will, but only the free will to do what we wanted to do and were going to do anyway. You are always just doing what you prefer to be doing.

I agree. The free will-determinism debate seems totally beside the point to me, because whether we think we're making completely free choices or believe we're just executing our tasks in the grand algorithm, we still have to make decisions about our lives and abide by them.