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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:16 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 1:17 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: (November 12, 2023 at 12:43 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Can we have 5 examples of each ?
Alright.
For human reality...
Viewing the serious of a situation...
Believing in something that may or may not exist, and if it does, it may exist differently than what people believe (this includes believing in gods)...
Thinking that a turkey should be replaced as Thanksgiving dinner...
Favoring nuts over candy as a snack.
Interpreting something like love as something else than what it is, as viewed generally or by its actual definition.
Those are examples of human reality here, as in what is perceived and what people think of things. Now...
The reality outside human reality...
The planets orbiting the sun, which orbits the center of the milky way.
Apples being red.
Force equals mass times acceleration as determined by physics.
Sound not being something that travels in a vacuum.
A historic event or events like WWII happening the way they did...
Those are on the more factual, indisputable side of things, and in regards to free will, it may not exist as something as determined by the brain and neural system of the human body. My views, again, are on the human reality side, but I do think the brain and neural system of humans are more deterministic, or work in a way that does not allow for free will. I also just think many people, like those who are not scientists, do not seem to know more of how the mind works to determine if free will can actually work the way they believe it does. I am sure that when free will was first thought up by humans, they did not know much about the mind to determine that it does exist.
Thanks.
They're all human reality.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell 
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:17 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 2:09 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God much rather have spiritual beings with free will with evil, than beings with no free will and no evil.
His presence is sufficiently revealed so people will know he’s there but sufficiently hidden so that those who wish to ignore him can do so. This way, their choice of destiny* is really a free-will decision. Everyone is currently deciding their choice.
-----------------------------
*Either eternal connection with God, or eternal separation.
Nah.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:20 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 2:16 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: (November 12, 2023 at 1:17 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Alright.
For human reality...
Viewing the serious of a situation...
Believing in something that may or may not exist, and if it does, it may exist differently than what people believe (this includes believing in gods)...
Thinking that a turkey should be replaced as Thanksgiving dinner...
Favoring nuts over candy as a snack.
Interpreting something like love as something else than what it is, as viewed generally or by its actual definition.
Those are examples of human reality here, as in what is perceived and what people think of things. Now...
The reality outside human reality...
The planets orbiting the sun, which orbits the center of the milky way.
Apples being red.
Force equals mass times acceleration as determined by physics.
Sound not being something that travels in a vacuum.
A historic event or events like WWII happening the way they did...
Those are on the more factual, indisputable side of things, and in regards to free will, it may not exist as something as determined by the brain and neural system of the human body. My views, again, are on the human reality side, but I do think the brain and neural system of humans are more deterministic, or work in a way that does not allow for free will. I also just think many people, like those who are not scientists, do not seem to know more of how the mind works to determine if free will can actually work the way they believe it does. I am sure that when free will was first thought up by humans, they did not know much about the mind to determine that it does exist.
Thanks.
They're all human reality.
Yup. I fail to grasp how locality affects reality. Mars is as much a part of human reality as shoes.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:28 pm
(This post was last modified: November 12, 2023 at 2:29 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 12, 2023 at 2:09 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God much rather have spiritual beings with free will with evil, than beings with no free will and no evil.
His presence is sufficiently revealed so people will know he’s there but sufficiently hidden so that those who wish to ignore him can do so. This way, their choice of destiny* is really a free-will decision. Everyone is currently deciding their choice.
-----------------------------
*Either eternal connection with God, or eternal separation.
All well and good, the morality-making property in your view is explicitly the possession of free will. I guess that really does mean that your entire moral system is bunk if we don't possess it. A self inflicted wound. I would have expected christians to learn their lesson about tying anchors to their beliefs over these many centuries - but here we are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:38 pm
Perhaps I did not use the right words again. Maybe I meant perceived and non-perceived reality instead. Maybe not reality was the right word itself? I was aiming for a distance between subjective and objective sense.
But still, I do not think free will exists on a neurological and brain-related sense. Maybe biological sense, too. I don't think free will exists, and if it did, it does not exist the way humans think it does. I simply do not think science and the laws of physics allow for free will.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 2:55 pm
(This post was last modified: November 12, 2023 at 2:56 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(November 12, 2023 at 2:09 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God much rather have spiritual beings with free will with evil, than beings with no free will and no evil.
Yet he would hold our eternal souls ransom. That isn't free will, that's extortion. He extorts worship from you by threatening you with eternal punishment. "It'd be a shame if something bad happened to your soul, capisce?"
That's not to mention the fact that you aren't free to change your god's plan, or do something he didn't foresee.
And that's not to mention the fact that what's being discussed here is materialistic free will, not theological.
So yeah, no. No matter how much you think you can speak for your god, in this case you're clearly wrong.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 4:01 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 2:55 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (November 12, 2023 at 2:09 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God much rather have spiritual beings with free will with evil, than beings with no free will and no evil.
Yet he would hold our eternal souls ransom. That isn't free will, that's extortion. He extorts worship from you by threatening you with eternal punishment. "It'd be a shame if something bad happened to your soul, capisce?"
That's not to mention the fact that you aren't free to change your god's plan, or do something he didn't foresee.
And that's not to mention the fact that what's being discussed here is materialistic free will, not theological.
So yeah, no. No matter how much you think you can speak for your god, in this case you're clearly wrong.
But that doesn't happen. Like, it happens if you consider God to be the malevolent entity He is made out to be in some religions. But it wouldn't happen in reality.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 4:04 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 4:01 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (November 12, 2023 at 2:55 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Yet he would hold our eternal souls ransom. That isn't free will, that's extortion. He extorts worship from you by threatening you with eternal punishment. "It'd be a shame if something bad happened to your soul, capisce?"
That's not to mention the fact that you aren't free to change your god's plan, or do something he didn't foresee.
And that's not to mention the fact that what's being discussed here is materialistic free will, not theological.
So yeah, no. No matter how much you think you can speak for your god, in this case you're clearly wrong.
But that doesn't happen. Like, it happens if you consider God to be the malevolent entity He is made out to be in some religions. But it wouldn't happen in reality.
Nothing about God happens in reality.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 4:06 pm
(November 12, 2023 at 4:01 pm)Ahriman Wrote: But that doesn't happen. Like, it happens if you consider God to be the malevolent entity He is made out to be in some religions. But it wouldn't happen in reality.
That's because "God" doesn't exist in reality. I take it you're unfamiliar with the phrase "for the sake of argument"?
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 12, 2023 at 4:09 pm
(This post was last modified: November 12, 2023 at 4:09 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
If you’re a good person only because of the threat of eternal punishment or the hope of eternal reward, you’re not a good person.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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