(June 22, 2024 at 10:23 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 22, 2024 at 7:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But God deliberately deluded them into believing a heretical falsehood for the express purpose of denying them redemption. This rather puts the the lie to your claim that God doesn’t muck about with free will.

Also, you might want to have a butcher’s at Exodus 20.

Boru

The quote is from a prophecy as yet unfulfilled, as to what YHWH will do in the last few years of the latter days, just prior to the Millennial reign, not what he has done, to those that refuse the truth he offers, and has offered long and patiently, desiring only a meeting of minds and hearts.
 
The Most High is not leading those who choose lies over truth into anything but allows them their own choice. He but gives into their decision. And as the decision is what keeps them from the salvation that would prevent this end, he chooses to simply amplifies their choice, and make use of it to his own ends. And yet, had they but accepted the truth, and lived by it to the best of their ability, all of this would have bypassed them.

Freewill is given, but it does provoke consequences, just as you cannot throw a stone into a pond, and not have a lot of inconvenient ripples.

As for Exodus 20, there is a lot of instruction there on how to live. Which did you wish to discuss?

Whups, my bad. Exodus 10, not 20.

Boru

Taking the verbiage of what is a Judaic belief system back into the occasional Hebrew or Aramaic word is a signal to those reading or hearing it that I am not a follower of Christian ideation of the Jewish Messiah. I understand what Christians believe about Yeshua, and find it to be often at odds with the Judaism that engendered it.
 
Christianity is not disgusting to me, any more than atheism is. Christianity is a valiant attempt to translate Jewish thought into a non-Jewish culture and force it onto western based ideas that were derived from Greco-Roman concepts.
 
It leaves much to be desired from the Jewish point of view, being somewhat similar to having less than half the pieces of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle where the players are earnestly trying to see the original picture, and having to fill in what is missing from what their non-Jewish scholars say fits.
 
Still, each Christian is far different from the next, and the longer any believer in Yeshua delves into the Jewish concepts as delineated in what is termed the Old Testament, the more they find that what they were taught was not quite accurate; locate more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle; and become more and more a proselyte to Nazarene Judaism.
 
The most simple example of the differences between a Jew that follows Yeshua, and a Gentile who does so begins at how the two sections of what is called the Bible are termed, and what they mean in the underlying languages. Christians call the Covenants in the books that make up the original Scriptures of the Jews, the Old Testament, and the Brit Chadashah or Renewed Covenant, the New Testament.
 
Yet a testament is but a will, presumed to instruct the heirs involved on how to distribute property, not a series of ongoing, binding Covenants, which is what the entire collection of books in the Scriptures are a history of.
 
Jews are born into the Covenants, which are agreements between YHWH and the Israelites, and inherited through the bloodline we descend from, and are binding on us without our consent. Gentiles have no part in the Covenants until they begin to follow them, and thus are accepted among the greater family that descends from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, becoming what is termed Ger Toshav (resident strangers, and thus god fearers)
 
But most Christians have no idea of this simple, but crucial difference. They claim the Sinai Covenant, commonly called the Torah, was nailed to the stake along with Yeshua, and is no longer binding, and are unaware that the Renewed Covenant that they call the New Testament, and desire to be a part of, is the existing Sinai Covenant being placed into their being, and written into their hearts and minds. For without that Sinai Covenant, there can be no Renewed one.
 
Jews that believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel know that Yeshua declared that nothing of the Torah would cease to be binding until the world was no more, and indeed welcome that fact.
 
Torah is not dead, and the law that Christians despise for the most part are the heart of any form of Judaism, Nazarene Judaism included.

(June 23, 2024 at 12:44 pm)Questor Wrote: Taking the verbiage of what is a Judaic belief system back into the occasional Hebrew or Aramaic word is a signal to those reading or hearing it that I am not a follower of Christian ideation of the Jewish Messiah. I understand what Christians believe about Yeshua, and find it to be often at odds with the Judaism that engendered it.
 
Christianity is not disgusting to me, any more than atheism is. Christianity is a valiant attempt to translate Jewish thought into a non-Jewish culture and force it onto western based ideas that were derived from Greco-Roman concepts.
 
It leaves much to be desired from the Jewish point of view, being somewhat similar to having less than half the pieces of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle where the players are earnestly trying to see the original picture, and having to fill in what is missing from what their non-Jewish scholars say fits.
 
Still, each Christian is far different from the next, and the longer any believer in Yeshua delves into the Jewish concepts as delineated in what is termed the Old Testament, the more they find that what they were taught was not quite accurate; locate more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle; and become more and more a proselyte to Nazarene Judaism.
 
The most simple example of the differences between a Jew that follows Yeshua, and a Gentile who does so begins at how the two sections of what is called the Bible are termed, and what they mean in the underlying languages. Christians call the Covenants in the books that make up the original Scriptures of the Jews, the Old Testament, and the Brit Chadashah or Renewed Covenant, the New Testament.
 
Yet a testament is but a will, presumed to instruct the heirs involved on how to distribute property, not a series of ongoing, binding Covenants, which is what the entire collection of books in the Scriptures are a history of.
 
Jews are born into the Covenants, which are agreements between YHWH and the Israelites, and inherited through the bloodline we descend from, and are binding on us without our consent. Gentiles have no part in the Covenants until they begin to follow them, and thus are accepted among the greater family that descends from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, becoming what is termed Ger Toshav (resident strangers, and thus god fearers)
 
But most Christians have no idea of this simple, but crucial difference. They claim the Sinai Covenant, commonly called the Torah, was nailed to the stake along with Yeshua, and is no longer binding, and are unaware that the Renewed Covenant that they call the New Testament, and desire to be a part of, is the existing Sinai Covenant being placed into their being, and written into their hearts and minds. For without that Sinai Covenant, there can be no Renewed one.
 
Jews that believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel know that Yeshua declared that nothing of the Torah would cease to be binding until the world was no more, and indeed welcome that fact.
 
Torah is not dead, and the law that Christians despise for the most part are the heart of any form of Judaism, Nazarene Judaism included.

Faith = belief without evidence, which you're more than welcome to, I'm not anti-theist until a theist pokes. I think you've made some non-believer pokes.

Seeing that you're somewhat unique in your beliefs (at least to me) I'm going to ask. What evidence can you provide that you think would convince me that your particular god exists?

(June 23, 2024 at 12:44 pm)Questor Wrote: Taking the verbiage of what is a Judaic belief system back into the occasional Hebrew or Aramaic word is a signal to those reading or hearing it that I am not a follower of Christian ideation of the Jewish Messiah. I understand what Christians believe about Yeshua, and find it to be often at odds with the Judaism that engendered it.
 
Christianity is not disgusting to me, any more than atheism is. Christianity is a valiant attempt to translate Jewish thought into a non-Jewish culture and force it onto western based ideas that were derived from Greco-Roman concepts.
 
It leaves much to be desired from the Jewish point of view, being somewhat similar to having less than half the pieces of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle where the players are earnestly trying to see the original picture, and having to fill in what is missing from what their non-Jewish scholars say fits.
 
Still, each Christian is far different from the next, and the longer any believer in Yeshua delves into the Jewish concepts as delineated in what is termed the Old Testament, the more they find that what they were taught was not quite accurate; locate more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle; and become more and more a proselyte to Nazarene Judaism.
 
The most simple example of the differences between a Jew that follows Yeshua, and a Gentile who does so begins at how the two sections of what is called the Bible are termed, and what they mean in the underlying languages. Christians call the Covenants in the books that make up the original Scriptures of the Jews, the Old Testament, and the Brit Chadashah or Renewed Covenant, the New Testament.
 
Yet a testament is but a will, presumed to instruct the heirs involved on how to distribute property, not a series of ongoing, binding Covenants, which is what the entire collection of books in the Scriptures are a history of.
 
Jews are born into the Covenants, which are agreements between YHWH and the Israelites, and inherited through the bloodline we descend from, and are binding on us without our consent. Gentiles have no part in the Covenants until they begin to follow them, and thus are accepted among the greater family that descends from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, becoming what is termed Ger Toshav (resident strangers, and thus god fearers)
 
But most Christians have no idea of this simple, but crucial difference. They claim the Sinai Covenant, commonly called the Torah, was nailed to the stake along with Yeshua, and is no longer binding, and are unaware that the Renewed Covenant that they call the New Testament, and desire to be a part of, is the existing Sinai Covenant being placed into their being, and written into their hearts and minds. For without that Sinai Covenant, there can be no Renewed one.
 
Jews that believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel know that Yeshua declared that nothing of the Torah would cease to be binding until the world was no more, and indeed welcome that fact.
 
Torah is not dead, and the law that Christians despise for the most part are the heart of any form of Judaism, Nazarene Judaism included.

Nonsense. Christians are all about the OT - it’s what they use to justify their hatred.

Boru

So, the only difference between you and another christian, in your estimation, is that you're doing it right. Precious. You've shown your contempt for the forum, I'll wait for you to show yourself the door.

(June 23, 2024 at 1:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So, the only difference between you and another christian, in your estimation, is that you're doing it right.  Precious.

IKR? And so very, very unique.

Boru

(June 23, 2024 at 4:37 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 22, 2024 at 10:23 pm)Questor Wrote: The quote is from a prophecy as yet unfulfilled, as to what YHWH will do in the last few years of the latter days, just prior to the Millennial reign, not what he has done, to those that refuse the truth he offers, and has offered long and patiently, desiring only a meeting of minds and hearts.
 
The Most High is not leading those who choose lies over truth into anything but allows them their own choice. He but gives into their decision. And as the decision is what keeps them from the salvation that would prevent this end, he chooses to simply amplifies their choice, and make use of it to his own ends. And yet, had they but accepted the truth, and lived by it to the best of their ability, all of this would have bypassed them.

Freewill is given, but it does provoke consequences, just as you cannot throw a stone into a pond, and not have a lot of inconvenient ripples.

As for Exodus 20, there is a lot of instruction there on how to live. Which did you wish to discuss?

Whups, my bad. Exodus 10, not 20.

Boru

Without further information, I have to presume you are stating that YHWH hardened the heart of Pharoah, and thus interfered with his free will.

Hardening a purpose already within the heart of any person who has lived their entire lives being fully satisfied with that purpose is not interference with his free will. It is more a coming into agreement with it, as if to say, "Okay, you want it that way, you get it that way!" And then, he used the Pharoah's mindset and desires to make some very splashy evidences of his existence.

Had Pharoah had any real softening towards the fate of the Israelites, it would have showed in changed behavior past the immediate relief of the most recent plague.

YHWH only wanted his people out of Eqypt. Had Pharoah had the least intention of allowing the Israelites to leave, he could have held to any of his original negotiations with G-d. He did not, and he, and all his people suffered because of it.

YHWH gave us freewill, and the consequences that go with them. What he chooses not to do, is to force anyone into relationship with him.

(June 23, 2024 at 1:03 pm)brewer Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 12:44 pm)Questor Wrote: Taking the verbiage of what is a Judaic belief system back into the occasional Hebrew or Aramaic word is a signal to those reading or hearing it that I am not a follower of Christian ideation of the Jewish Messiah. I understand what Christians believe about Yeshua, and find it to be often at odds with the Judaism that engendered it.
 
Christianity is not disgusting to me, any more than atheism is. Christianity is a valiant attempt to translate Jewish thought into a non-Jewish culture and force it onto western based ideas that were derived from Greco-Roman concepts.
 
It leaves much to be desired from the Jewish point of view, being somewhat similar to having less than half the pieces of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle where the players are earnestly trying to see the original picture, and having to fill in what is missing from what their non-Jewish scholars say fits.
 
Still, each Christian is far different from the next, and the longer any believer in Yeshua delves into the Jewish concepts as delineated in what is termed the Old Testament, the more they find that what they were taught was not quite accurate; locate more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle; and become more and more a proselyte to Nazarene Judaism.
 
The most simple example of the differences between a Jew that follows Yeshua, and a Gentile who does so begins at how the two sections of what is called the Bible are termed, and what they mean in the underlying languages. Christians call the Covenants in the books that make up the original Scriptures of the Jews, the Old Testament, and the Brit Chadashah or Renewed Covenant, the New Testament.
 
Yet a testament is but a will, presumed to instruct the heirs involved on how to distribute property, not a series of ongoing, binding Covenants, which is what the entire collection of books in the Scriptures are a history of.
 
Jews are born into the Covenants, which are agreements between YHWH and the Israelites, and inherited through the bloodline we descend from, and are binding on us without our consent. Gentiles have no part in the Covenants until they begin to follow them, and thus are accepted among the greater family that descends from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, becoming what is termed Ger Toshav (resident strangers, and thus god fearers)
 
But most Christians have no idea of this simple, but crucial difference. They claim the Sinai Covenant, commonly called the Torah, was nailed to the stake along with Yeshua, and is no longer binding, and are unaware that the Renewed Covenant that they call the New Testament, and desire to be a part of, is the existing Sinai Covenant being placed into their being, and written into their hearts and minds. For without that Sinai Covenant, there can be no Renewed one.
 
Jews that believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel know that Yeshua declared that nothing of the Torah would cease to be binding until the world was no more, and indeed welcome that fact.
 
Torah is not dead, and the law that Christians despise for the most part are the heart of any form of Judaism, Nazarene Judaism included.

Faith = belief without evidence, which you're more than welcome to, I'm not anti-theist until a theist pokes. I think you've made some non-believer pokes.

Seeing that you're somewhat unique in your beliefs (at least to me) I'm going to ask. What evidence can you provide that you think would convince me that your particular god exists?

That the Jews continue to exist both as a thorn in the side of the rest of the world, and a light to it. Despite much of the world being against our very existance, our extremely limited population, and oftimes bad behavior, some power has both chastised us when we failed to obey, and protected us against annihliation for some 3400 years.

(June 23, 2024 at 1:42 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 1:03 pm)brewer Wrote: Faith = belief without evidence, which you're more than welcome to, I'm not anti-theist until a theist pokes. I think you've made some non-believer pokes.

Seeing that you're somewhat unique in your beliefs (at least to me) I'm going to ask. What evidence can you provide that you think would convince me that your particular god exists?

That the Jews continue to exist both as a thorn in the side of the rest of the world, and a light to it. Despite much of the world being against our very existance, our extremely limited population, and oftimes bad behavior, some power has both chastised us when we failed to obey, and protected us against annihliation for some 3400 years.

I don't consider that evidence. It does qualify as rationalization but I find it unconvincing.

(June 23, 2024 at 1:05 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 12:44 pm)Questor Wrote: Taking the verbiage of what is a Judaic belief system back into the occasional Hebrew or Aramaic word is a signal to those reading or hearing it that I am not a follower of Christian ideation of the Jewish Messiah. I understand what Christians believe about Yeshua, and find it to be often at odds with the Judaism that engendered it.
 
Christianity is not disgusting to me, any more than atheism is. Christianity is a valiant attempt to translate Jewish thought into a non-Jewish culture and force it onto western based ideas that were derived from Greco-Roman concepts.
 
It leaves much to be desired from the Jewish point of view, being somewhat similar to having less than half the pieces of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle where the players are earnestly trying to see the original picture, and having to fill in what is missing from what their non-Jewish scholars say fits.
 
Still, each Christian is far different from the next, and the longer any believer in Yeshua delves into the Jewish concepts as delineated in what is termed the Old Testament, the more they find that what they were taught was not quite accurate; locate more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle; and become more and more a proselyte to Nazarene Judaism.
 
The most simple example of the differences between a Jew that follows Yeshua, and a Gentile who does so begins at how the two sections of what is called the Bible are termed, and what they mean in the underlying languages. Christians call the Covenants in the books that make up the original Scriptures of the Jews, the Old Testament, and the Brit Chadashah or Renewed Covenant, the New Testament.
 
Yet a testament is but a will, presumed to instruct the heirs involved on how to distribute property, not a series of ongoing, binding Covenants, which is what the entire collection of books in the Scriptures are a history of.
 
Jews are born into the Covenants, which are agreements between YHWH and the Israelites, and inherited through the bloodline we descend from, and are binding on us without our consent. Gentiles have no part in the Covenants until they begin to follow them, and thus are accepted among the greater family that descends from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, becoming what is termed Ger Toshav (resident strangers, and thus god fearers)
 
But most Christians have no idea of this simple, but crucial difference. They claim the Sinai Covenant, commonly called the Torah, was nailed to the stake along with Yeshua, and is no longer binding, and are unaware that the Renewed Covenant that they call the New Testament, and desire to be a part of, is the existing Sinai Covenant being placed into their being, and written into their hearts and minds. For without that Sinai Covenant, there can be no Renewed one.
 
Jews that believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel know that Yeshua declared that nothing of the Torah would cease to be binding until the world was no more, and indeed welcome that fact.
 
Torah is not dead, and the law that Christians despise for the most part are the heart of any form of Judaism, Nazarene Judaism included.

Nonsense. Christians are all about the OT - it’s what they use to justify their hatred.

Boru

I don't know many Christians. If they are all about the OT, I wonder that they do not follow it as opposed to saying it no longer matters. As for their hatred being justified by it, what do they hate as a unified group?