(June 23, 2024 at 1:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So, the only difference between you and another christian, in your estimation, is that you're doing it right.  Precious.  You've shown your contempt for the forum, I'll wait for you to show yourself the door.

I do not think that I am walking in Yeshua's footsteps at all well. I spend most of my time failing to do so, thus I am not doing it right.

As for the difference between a Jew walking after Yeshua as a Jew, and a Gentile doing so as a Gentile, there may be none, if they ignore the religious precepts stated in their churches, and cling only to the Bible's instructions as to behavior, which leads right into Judaism in their actions. In fact, not being required to follow Torah, and clinging to it is highly regarded by G-d, so much so, that he calls them sons and daughters.

Unfortunately, the Christians I have met or communicated with tend to hold very tightly to what is taught them in Church, and never question it, and resent highly those that do. I don't wish to quarrel with them, but I also do not wish to be confused with them either.

As to contempt for the forum, in what way have i shown it?

(June 23, 2024 at 1:45 pm)brewer Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 1:42 pm)Questor Wrote: That the Jews continue to exist both as a thorn in the side of the rest of the world, and a light to it. Despite much of the world being against our very existance, our extremely limited population, and oftimes bad behavior, some power has both chastised us when we failed to obey, and protected us against annihliation for some 3400 years.

I don't consider that evidence. It does qualify as rationalization but I find it unconvincing.

I presume only a hand at your throat coming down from heaven would convince you if you do not wish to be convinced, and possibly not then!

That is the essence of freewill.

(June 23, 2024 at 1:27 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 4:37 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Whups, my bad. Exodus 10, not 20.

Boru

Without further information, I have to presume you are stating that YHWH hardened the heart of Pharoah, and thus interfered with his free will.

Hardening a purpose already within the heart of any person who has lived their entire lives being fully satisfied with that purpose is not interference with his free will. It is more a coming into agreement with it, as if to say, "Okay, you want it that way, you get it that way!" And then, he used the Pharoah's mindset and desires to make some very splashy evidences of his existence.

Had Pharoah had any real softening towards the fate of the Israelites, it would have showed in changed behavior past the immediate relief of the most recent plague.

YHWH only wanted his people out of Eqypt. Had Pharoah had the least intention of allowing the Israelites to leave, he could have held to any of his original negotiations with G-d. He did not, and he, and all his people suffered because of it.

YHWH gave us freewill, and the consequences that go with them. What he chooses not to do, is to force anyone into relationship with him.

Pharaoh had offered to let the Israelites go. It was God, not Pharaoh, who changed his mind. This was a direct interference with free will.

Boru

(June 23, 2024 at 2:22 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 1:45 pm)brewer Wrote: I don't consider that evidence. It does qualify as rationalization but I find it unconvincing.

I presume only a hand at your throat coming down from heaven would convince you if you do not wish to be convinced, and possibly not then!

That is the essence of freewill.

Nope, just something more than a rationalization that could also be applied to many other beliefs/religions that have been persecuted and continue to exist.

Atheists have also been persecuted.

(June 23, 2024 at 2:27 pm)brewer Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 2:22 pm)Questor Wrote: I presume only a hand at your throat coming down from heaven would convince you if you do not wish to be convinced, and possibly not then!

That is the essence of freewill.

Nope, just something more than a rationalization that could also be applied to many other beliefs/religions that have been persecuted and continue to exist.

Atheists have also been persecuted.

What would you consider convincing proof?

Yeah we have free will, doesn't necessarily mean God is worthy of respect. If a parent let his/her child run into the street because "they're free to do whatever they want", would you respect that parent?

(June 23, 2024 at 2:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Yeah we have free will, doesn't necessarily mean God is worthy of respect. If a parent let his/her child run into the street because "they're free to do whatever they want", would you respect that parent?

The analogy is a poor one. There are passages in the Bible where God does the equivalent of pushing children into the street against their free will.

Boru

(June 23, 2024 at 2:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 1:27 pm)Questor Wrote: Without further information, I have to presume you are stating that YHWH hardened the heart of Pharoah, and thus interfered with his free will.

Hardening a purpose already within the heart of any person who has lived their entire lives being fully satisfied with that purpose is not interference with his free will. It is more a coming into agreement with it, as if to say, "Okay, you want it that way, you get it that way!" And then, he used the Pharoah's mindset and desires to make some very splashy evidences of his existence.

Had Pharoah had any real softening towards the fate of the Israelites, it would have showed in changed behavior past the immediate relief of the most recent plague.

YHWH only wanted his people out of Eqypt. Had Pharoah had the least intention of allowing the Israelites to leave, he could have held to any of his original negotiations with G-d. He did not, and he, and all his people suffered because of it.

YHWH gave us freewill, and the consequences that go with them. What he chooses not to do, is to force anyone into relationship with him.

Pharaoh had offered to let the Israelites go. It was God, not Pharaoh, who changed his mind. This was a direct interference with free will.

Boru

You realy need to read the entirety of the exchange from Exodus 5 onwards, and study what it was that Pharoah said, and then what he did. Pharoah never offered to let all the Israelites leave Eqypt, but only the men of Israel, holding their wives and children hostage for their return.

From Ex 7:8 onwards, it became a test of will, G-d showing his power, and Pharoah ignoring it, or pleading for clemency, promising to let the Israelites go, and then refusing to do so once the penalties were lifted. Pharoah was not exactly showing himself to be a man of his word.

Did YHWH harden Pharoah's heart once the contest was on? Of course. He promised to do so. Did he make the Pharoah's heart hard to begin with? No. 

During the first five plagues, Pharoah follows his own heart, and hardens it as he chooses. But in the last five plagues, God increases the hardness of Pharaoh’s already hard heart. 

We can choose our own way, and suffer the consequences. If we continue to make poor choices, God eventually turns us over to our own nature.

(June 23, 2024 at 3:09 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 2:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Pharaoh had offered to let the Israelites go. It was God, not Pharaoh, who changed his mind. This was a direct interference with free will.

Boru

You realy need to read the entirety of the exchange from Exodus 5 onwards, and study what it was that Pharoah said, and then what he did. Pharoah never offered to let all the Israelites leave Eqypt, but only the men of Israel, holding their wives and children hostage for their return.

From Ex 7:8 onwards, it became a test of will, G-d showing his power, and Pharoah ignoring it, or pleading for clemency, promising to let the Israelites go, and then refusing to do so once the penalties were lifted. Pharoah was not exactly showing himself to be a man of his word.

Did YHWH harden Pharoah's heart once the contest was on? Of course. He promised to do so. Did he make the Pharoah's heart hard to begin with? No. 

During the first five plagues, Pharoah follows his own heart, and hardens it as he chooses. But in the last five plagues, God increases the hardness of Pharaoh’s already hard heart. 

We can choose our own way, and suffer the consequences. If we continue to make poor choices, God eventually turns us over to our own nature.

Rubbish.

Boru

(June 23, 2024 at 3:09 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 23, 2024 at 2:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Pharaoh had offered to let the Israelites go. It was God, not Pharaoh, who changed his mind. This was a direct interference with free will.

Boru

You realy need to read the entirety of the exchange from Exodus 5 onwards, and study what it was that Pharoah said, and then what he did. Pharoah never offered to let all the Israelites leave Eqypt, but only the men of Israel, holding their wives and children hostage for their return.

From Ex 7:8 onwards, it became a test of will, G-d showing his power, and Pharoah ignoring it, or pleading for clemency, promising to let the Israelites go, and then refusing to do so once the penalties were lifted. Pharoah was not exactly showing himself to be a man of his word.

Did YHWH harden Pharoah's heart once the contest was on? Of course. He promised to do so. Did he make the Pharoah's heart hard to begin with? No. 

During the first five plagues, Pharoah follows his own heart, and hardens it as he chooses. But in the last five plagues, God increases the hardness of Pharaoh’s already hard heart. 

We can choose our own way, and suffer the consequences. If we continue to make poor choices, God eventually turns us over to our own nature.

It's a set up, dude. God knows what we are capable of and what we are not capable of, and thus knows what we are most likely to do in any given scenario. We might technically be "free" to make our own choices, but it doesn't amount to much, since whatever we choose is always going to be what we were most likely to do in the first place. It wouldn't ever be any other way.