(September 16, 2024 at 2:14 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It's was more about telling themselves they Rugged, Individualist Americans™, by God.

To be honest I always saw them as crybabies "oppressed" by big, bad, mean gov. And of course greedy fuck ups not wanting to pay their part in taxes.

I was one of them for fifteen years. Most of us were interested in limiting government, keeping taxes low too.

(September 16, 2024 at 2:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:14 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: To be honest I always saw them as crybabies "oppressed" by big, bad, mean gov. And of course greedy fuck ups not wanting to pay their part in taxes.

I was one of them for fifteen years. Most of us were interested in limiting government, keeping taxes low too.

I'm glad that you aren't one now. I might understand people wanting limited gov (night watchman state in more extreme version) or low taxes but limited gov is a weak gov and thus of no use in safeguarding citizens from corporations greed (but still strong enough to look into people bedrooms) and countries being really good to live in aren't exactly known for having low taxes (though there might be exceptions). And of course there is world of difference between wanting low taxes and seeing taxes as robbery.

(September 16, 2024 at 2:38 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I was one of them for fifteen years. Most of us were interested in limiting government, keeping taxes low too.

I'm glad that you aren't one now. I might understand people wanting limited gov (night watchman state in more extreme version) or low taxes but limited gov is a weak gov and thus of no use in safeguarding citizens from corporations greed (but still strong enough to look into people bedrooms) and countries being really good to live in aren't exactly known for having low taxes (though there might be exceptions). And of course there is world of difference between wanting low taxes and seeing taxes as robbery.

Yeah, it took a while for me to come to my senses. As a political philosophy, it actually shares the same major flaw as Marxism/Leninism -- it forgets the undying power of human greed to twist even the most noble of intentions.

(September 16, 2024 at 2:44 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:38 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: I'm glad that you aren't one now. I might understand people wanting limited gov (night watchman state in more extreme version) or low taxes but limited gov is a weak gov and thus of no use in safeguarding citizens from corporations greed (but still strong enough to look into people bedrooms) and countries being really good to live in aren't exactly known for having low taxes (though there might be exceptions). And of course there is world of difference between wanting low taxes and seeing taxes as robbery.

Yeah, it took a while for me to come to my senses. As a political philosophy, it actually shares the same major flaw as Marxism/Leninism -- it forgets the undying power of human greed to twist even the most noble of intentions.

You did and many don't so that's a success. Also I wouldn't ascribe noble intentions to libertarianism or Marxism-Leninism. In fact it's something that baffles me. I mean Marx did not write all that much about what communism will look like so there isn't much basis to ascribe nobility to it (I for one don't deem disappearance of state to be good) and yet people do so quite often, at least in my experience. In my view it's just some made up crap with platitudes thrown in (from everyone according to ability, to everyone according to his need) that was as possible to achieve as all people being strong like Hercules, wise like Socrates and brave like Leonidas. And basis for Soviet state religion of course which also don't add anything to it's supposed nobility.

(September 16, 2024 at 12:22 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 9:46 am)Nanny Wrote: Libertarian Party of New Hampshire posts threat against Harris, then deletes it, then sneers at criticism because freedumb.

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/202...la-harris/

""The Libertarian Party of New Hampshire is under fire after allegedly writing on social media that assassinating Vice President Kamala Harris would be heroic.

Multiple users, including reporters, posted screenshots of a deleted post shared to X early Sunday morning that read: “Anyone who [redacted] Kamala Harris would be an American hero.”

The Libertarian Party addressed the post Sunday morning, writing that “Libertarians are truly the most oppressed minority.”

“We deleted a tweet because we don’t want to break the terms of this website we agreed to,” the post said. “It’s a shame that even on a ‘free speech’ website that libertarians cannot speak freely.”"

Knuckleheads. my brackets. Oppressed my arse.

It comes as no surprise that Libertarians - of all people - don’t understand what ‘free speech’ entails and what it does not (hint: encouraging the assassination of a political officeholder falls under ‘not’).

‘Truly the most oppressed minority?’ Really?

Boru

(September 16, 2024 at 2:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:14 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: To be honest I always saw them as crybabies "oppressed" by big, bad, mean gov. And of course greedy fuck ups not wanting to pay their part in taxes.

I was one of them for fifteen years. Most of us were interested in limiting government, keeping taxes low too.

Used to be where you went when you wanted less bigotry, weaker intrusion, lower taxes, and more weed.  No point in litigating whether that was all a front, as my tender 18yr old self did not come into politics with all the right opinions, the benefit of lifelong experience, or the full catalogue of libertarian hot-takes since.  

White supremacist->republican->libertarian->non participator. I like to think I've been getting better, lol. When white supremacy went left wing (in it's language and organizing principles as a propaganda strategy, calm down) I became a republican. When I had my come to jesus moment on white supremacy I became a libertarian. When I began to wonder whether I had fired a weapon at other human beings for the benefit of stock futures I became a non participator.

I do think that having been firmly in the tank for something I now know to be not only false, but wrong, is a valuable experience to have. So I hear people proudly proclaim that they've always been on the right side of every issue, or that theyve always seen things for "how they are".... and on the one hand I strongly duobt that - but when I accept it for novel values of all variables I think to myself......I'm glad to have been wrong and gone through that. I think it gives me clarity....but...I would, wouldn't I....rightly or wrongly.

(I would also like to point out that a weak us government is not a bad thing..from the pov that the us gov is a piece of shit with any power you give them....which as far as I can tell, is a bipartisan belief. Not that it matters, since we've made our government very strong where it intends to harm and very weak if it intends to help...skewing impressions and outcomes - my own included. It may be that the only reason, truly, that I haven't gone down the maga demonhole is that I think past governments were worse with this, not better. Listen to me for five fuckin seconds and you'll realize that I'm also a militant accelerationist. I don't disagree with maga about what's up - I disagree with them about who needs to be in a camp in the desert. Food for thought.)

(September 16, 2024 at 2:55 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:44 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Yeah, it took a while for me to come to my senses. As a political philosophy, it actually shares the same major flaw as Marxism/Leninism -- it forgets the undying power of human greed to twist even the most noble of intentions.

You did and many don't so that's a success. Also I wouldn't ascribe noble intentions to libertarianism or Marxism-Leninism. In fact it's something that baffles me. I mean Marx did not write all that much about what communism will look like so there isn't much basis to ascribe nobility to it (I for one don't deem disappearance of state to be good) and yet people do so quite often, at least in my experience. In my view it's just some made up crap with platitudes thrown in (from everyone according to ability, to everyone according to his need) that was as possible to achieve as all people being strong like Hercules, wise like Socrates and brave like Leonidas. And basis for Soviet state religion of course which also don't add anything to it's supposed nobility.

When I mentioned "nobility", I was talking about how the adherents believed that what they adhered to would actually produce a better world for all. They thought that assigning production to the people, or trusting magnates to do the right thing following the money, would in the end in both cases result in a better society for all.

That's clearly not the case in either instance because both systems ignore the basic urge of greed.

Of course, after both systems are shown flawed, apologists show up to explain why this or that experiment (Soviet Union, Gilded Age in America) went wrong, not because the ideology was wrong, but "the people didn't implement it right".

This ignores the fact that in both cases, greed -- for power or money or control -- is for better or worse an essential human quality.

(September 16, 2024 at 5:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(September 16, 2024 at 2:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I was one of them for fifteen years. Most of us were interested in limiting government, keeping taxes low too.

Used to be where you went when you wanted less bigotry, weaker intrusion, lower taxes, and more weed.  No point in litigating whether that was all a front, as my tender 18yr old self did not come into politics with all the right opinions, the benefit of lifelong experience, or the full catalogue of libertarian hot-takes since.  

White supremacist->republican->libertarian->non participator.  I like to think I've been getting better, lol.  When white supremacy went left wing (in it's language and organizing principles as a propaganda strategy, calm down) I became a republican.  When I had my come to jesus moment on white supremacy I became a libertarian.  When I began to wonder whether I had fired a weapon at other human beings for the benefit of stock futures I became a non participator.

I do think that having been firmly in the tank for something I now know to be not only false, but wrong, is a valuable experience to have.  So I hear people proudly proclaim that they've always been on the right side of every issue, or that theyve always seen things for "how they are".... and on the one hand I strongly duobt that - but when I accept it for novel values of all variables I think to myself......I'm glad to have been wrong and gone through that.  I think it gives me clarity....but...I would, wouldn't I....rightly or wrongly.

(I would also like to point out that a weak us government is not a bad thing..from the pov that the us gov is a piece of shit with any power you give them....which as far as I can tell, is a bipartisan belief.  Not that it matters, since we've made our government very strong where it intends to harm and very weak if it intends to help...skewing impressions and outcomes - my own included.  It may be that the only reason, truly, that I haven't gone down the maga demonhole is that I think past governments were worse with this, not better.  Listen to me for five fuckin seconds and you'll realize that I'm also a militant accelerationist.  I don't disagree with maga about what's up - I disagree with them about who needs to be in a camp in the desert.  Food for thought.)

There's a lot to chew on here, with agreement and disagreement, but I can't give this reply the response it deserves right now. I've got to fetch up dinner and handle bidness here, but I will return to give your response a deserving answer.

(September 16, 2024 at 5:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

---

Used to be where you went when you wanted less bigotry, weaker intrusion, lower taxes, and more weed.  No point in litigating whether that was all a front, as my tender 18yr old self did not come into politics with all the right opinions, the benefit of lifelong experience, or the full catalogue of libertarian hot-takes since.  

White supremacist->republican->libertarian->non participator.  I like to think I've been getting better, lol.  When white supremacy went left wing (in it's language and organizing principles as a propaganda strategy, calm down) I became a republican.  When I had my come to jesus moment on white supremacy I became a libertarian.  When I began to wonder whether I had fired a weapon at other human beings for the benefit of stock futures I became a non participator.

I do think that having been firmly in the tank for something I now know to be not only false, but wrong, is a valuable experience to have.  So I hear people proudly proclaim that they've always been on the right side of every issue, or that theyve always seen things for "how they are".... and on the one hand I strongly duobt that - but when I accept it for novel values of all variables I think to myself......I'm glad to have been wrong and gone through that.  I think it gives me clarity....but...I would, wouldn't I....rightly or wrongly.

(I would also like to point out that a weak us government is not a bad thing..from the pov that the us gov is a piece of shit with any power you give them....which as far as I can tell, is a bipartisan belief.  Not that it matters, since we've made our government very strong where it intends to harm and very weak if it intends to help...skewing impressions and outcomes - my own included.  It may be that the only reason, truly, that I haven't gone down the maga demonhole is that I think past governments were worse with this, not better.  Listen to me for five fuckin seconds and you'll realize that I'm also a militant accelerationist.  I don't disagree with maga about what's up - I disagree with them about who needs to be in a camp in the desert.  Food for thought.)

---

To follow on: I started as a Libertarian. I caught a bad case of Ayn Rand in college and went with that for, I dunno, about ten years, until I realized that those ideas actually hurt real human beings in real life. I still clung to, and do to this day, the idea that that our government has abused every power we've ever given it, and many we didn't but they claimed anyway.

Once that happened, I sort migrated to centrist Republican, a sort-of Howard-Baker-I've made-my-peace-with Social-Security guy. I would vote for the occasional Democrat. But I voted Lib presidential from 1988 to 2000.

Desert Storm was a turning point for me, as I saw that what I saw as service and thanks to our country was actually a bit of being treated as a mercenary under lawful colors. That only increased my distrust of our government, and at the same time helped me see how that same government was very happy to have warm bodies filling billets. "Freedom" my ass, that was about $1.50/gal for gas. So I decided that hey, trying to be a working musician was better.

I still distrust our government, no matter who's in charge, but the whole Tea Party morphing into MAGAts thing never was alluring, because the not-so-subtle racism was aimed at folks like my son and his mom, amongst others. My sister married a black man when I was fifteen; I gave her away at her wedding because my dad, a racist, refused to. Not sure how Vance can suck Trump's cock and still look at his wife with a straight face, but hey, that's compartmentalization. I don't compartmentalize. I'm a gestalt thinker.

i started out hating government, but grew to understand its necessity, even as I grew to understand its lurking danger. That whole "power corrupts" thing, y'know? I just had to learn a lot. Who knows? I'm a white male. If I were 20 years old right now, I'd probably be just as ignorant and vulnerable as I was then.

I voted for Badnerick, Johnson, and Jorgensen. In succession. The LP has been overrun with antivax, anti immigrant, anti anything but their flavor of christian nationalism, that they've coopted the brand. Chase Oliver is one of a dying breed, and not without his own baggage. The LP is now the party of oppression via individualism. Freedumb.

ETA - Today's LP is the hillbilly to Ned Beatty's character in Deliverance.