(September 30, 2024 at 7:43 pm)A. Secular Human Wrote: I only ever look at Wikipedia for the source references, then go all primary, if possible.

Yep, when possible. Of course, many Wiki sources are themselves secondary based on primaries, or even further down the line. At a point it's like digging for truffles with a noseless pig.

That's not to say books are better. You can dig through the bibliography, and find that claim x sourced from book y is based on crap too.

(September 28, 2024 at 2:37 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2024 at 2:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The article largely focuses on the work of Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (an actual historian) who makes the compelling case that occultism in the Third Reich is largely a case of modern mythology and sensationalism. To wit:

Thanks, Brian. That's pretty much the consensus of the many sources, some primary, which I've read. Shirer refers to the rallies as "pagan-like", but that is not the same as "pagan" and a wordsmith like Shirer would be well aware of the distinction. He attended several rallies, including those at Nuremberg, as an accredited journalist, making him a primary source. He also interviewed Speer, the man charged with orchestrating the rallies and designing the accoutrements. Speer reported that Hitler wanted overawing pageantry, not paganism.

Instead of pagan I would call them religious or cult like designed to foster certain atmosphere. And of course there is Hitler religiously loaded language like below quote passage in Mein Kampf*:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Hitler was canny enough to use religious language seeing as most of the Germany was one or other flavor of christian. I never saw any reputable source claiming that he did not believe or one saying that he was really into mysticism. It's only ever mentioned in context of Himmler when it comes to serious literature, though of course one can consider nazism itself as something quasi religious with it's focus on blood&soil, which hardly fits into this supposedly "rational" ideology.

*https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230623989_5

(September 30, 2024 at 10:56 pm)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(September 28, 2024 at 2:37 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Thanks, Brian. That's pretty much the consensus of the many sources, some primary, which I've read. Shirer refers to the rallies as "pagan-like", but that is not the same as "pagan" and a wordsmith like Shirer would be well aware of the distinction. He attended several rallies, including those at Nuremberg, as an accredited journalist, making him a primary source. He also interviewed Speer, the man charged with orchestrating the rallies and designing the accoutrements. Speer reported that Hitler wanted overawing pageantry, not paganism.

Instead of pagan I would call them religious or cult like designed to foster certain atmosphere. And of course there is Hitler religiously loaded language like below quote passage in Mein Kampf*:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Hitler was canny enough to use religious language seeing as most of the Germany was one or other flavor of christian. I never saw any reputable source claiming that he did not believe or one saying that he was really into mysticism. It's only ever mentioned in context of Himmler when it comes to serious literature, though of course one can consider nazism itself as something quasi religious with it's focus on blood&soil, which hardly fits into this supposedly "rational" ideology.

*https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230623989_5

Right. Hitler regularly referred to "Providence", which in the Western world is usually interpreted as "God". And yes, Naziism had its own religious overtones, but those were inbuilt and Volkisch rather than appealing to broader pagan stuff.

Hitler appealed much more to Christian tropes ("the Lord, mighty in battle" regarding Barbarossa, and so on) than paganism. The latter was, I think, just one more item the Allies could try to use as propaganda.

(September 30, 2024 at 1:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: @Leonardo17

Quote:Hitler is also said to have had several works on Occultism in his library.

I also have books on occultism in my library, it doesn’t make me an occultist. I also own books on geology, Roman legions, elephants, and trees (among other topics). This doesn’t mean I’m a geologist, a centurion, a zookeeper, or an arborist.

Boru

   I still believe that reading them or having read them is not always the same thing. Just as a personal note: I stopped being interested in the subject as I became more and more spiritual. So I’m going to repeat this story:
 

---

 
“There was one this student who wanted his master to teach him how to walk on water. So his master gave him a few mantras to repeat at certain times of the day. Than the student used these mantras as instructed and became able to walk on water and cross the river by foot. Than somebody told him: - If you had given a few rupees to one of the fisherman one of them would have carried you across the river without any of the efforts that you have committed to this until now”  
 
   Many Yogis describe the Occult as some sort of forgotten technology. (Yaggadish Vassudev has a few youtube Videos on that). But the main thing in our age is that we can use the telephone instead of telepathy, medicine instead of magic and smart bombs or hacked beepers instead of voodoo dolls. It’s a matter of efficiency
 
   But on a personal level and by this I don’t mean those who read stuff out of curiosity, I sort of match this kind of stuff very well with extremely self-involved who thing they are better than everyone else or have an ideology that is designed to remake and save the world in a manner that is based on some Ego-based ideology.
 

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   On the other hand: There was a public fascination with these ideologies from many writers, movie-makers or event documentary series. So some facts were probably exaggerated. But Hitler is also known for restoring some pagan rituals and holidays as a way of bringing the German people closer to its roots in pre-Christian Antiquity. That was the romantic side of Nazism. But yes, my Wolfenstein 4D type of theory on Nazi Occultism seems to be a little exaggerated.

(11 hours ago)Leonardo17 Wrote: But Hitler is also known for restoring some pagan rituals and holidays as a way of bringing the German people closer to its roots in pre-Christian Antiquity.

Let's see your examples and sources. Be specific on both counts.

What pagan rituals did Hitler "restore" (pardon the pun)?

What sources do you have supporting those claims?

(5 hours ago)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(11 hours ago)Leonardo17 Wrote: But Hitler is also known for restoring some pagan rituals and holidays as a way of bringing the German people closer to its roots in pre-Christian Antiquity.

Let's see your examples and sources. Be specific on both counts.

What pagan rituals did Hitler "restore" (pardon the pun)?

What sources do you have supporting those claims?

It's possible that Wikipedia missed something but it does not look like Hitler added some pagan holidays to German festive calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_in_Nazi_Germany

(5 hours ago)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(5 hours ago)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Let's see your examples and sources. Be specific on both counts.

What pagan rituals did Hitler "restore" (pardon the pun)?

What sources do you have supporting those claims?

It's possible that Wikipedia missed something but it does not look like Hitler added some pagan holidays to German festive calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_in_Nazi_Germany

Setting aside the fact that both Christmas and Easter were long-accomplished transmogrifications of pagan holidays -- celebrated in many countries the world over -- I'm not seeing any paganism espoused by the Nazi regime onto the populace.

(5 hours ago)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(5 hours ago)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: It's possible that Wikipedia missed something but it does not look like Hitler added some pagan holidays to German festive calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_in_Nazi_Germany

Setting aside the fact that both Christmas and Easter were long-accomplished transmogrifications of pagan holidays -- celebrated in many countries the world over -- I'm not seeing any paganism espoused by the Nazi regime onto the populace.

I seem to recall that when Rome was pushing for everyone to be Catholic, pagan elements were implemented into Catholic rituals to help ease the people into the "new" religion that they were being forced to follow.

Pretty sure this predated Hitler.

Leo better look out or he will be recruited by Trump/Vance and the rest for his tendencies to lie when it suits him.

(5 hours ago)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(5 hours ago)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: It's possible that Wikipedia missed something but it does not look like Hitler added some pagan holidays to German festive calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_in_Nazi_Germany

Setting aside the fact that both Christmas and Easter were long-accomplished transmogrifications of pagan holidays -- celebrated in many countries the world over -- I'm not seeing any paganism espoused by the Nazi regime onto the populace.

Nor I. One could perhaps look for some "paganism" in holidays Heroes memorial day or Memorial day for the martyrs but it's not like christians did not celebrated their heroes and martyrs so list comes empty on this account.

(5 hours ago)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(5 hours ago)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Setting aside the fact that both Christmas and Easter were long-accomplished transmogrifications of pagan holidays -- celebrated in many countries the world over -- I'm not seeing any paganism espoused by the Nazi regime onto the populace.

Nor I. One could perhaps look for some "paganism" in holidays Heroes memorial day or Memorial day for the martyrs but it's not like christians did not celebrated their heroes and martyrs so list comes empty on this account.

"Gott Mit Uns" on your belt-buckle just isn't very pagan. Nazi hierarchy appealed directly to the Christian feelings of Germans in order to collate support. Paganism would have offended the same Christians who filled the ranks of the Wehrmacht.