There will never be peace there, the Israelis declared openly that their target it is Gaza ethnic cleansing, the other are so retard that they think since Muhammed was convinced to have flown to Jerusalem on a winged donkey, then they deserve to settle there.
On that piece of land the first genocide ever happened, Homo sapiens exterminated Neanderthal
I would anyway say that the amount of money aid that Israel receive from the US is slightly disproportioned to the "poorness" of the country or their need to "develop", and that is the real problem in my mind.
The only solution will be 2 volks 2 states, but such solution is really hampered by Israel, they want to be the only one there. So ultimately, there sill be no peace, for the next 50 years Israel may prevail militarily but the war that Israel is winning on the field it is losing in the bedroom, since the muslims they reproduce with higger rate and will "occupy" the land.
The only chance for palestinians is the emergence of a Gandhi like figure among them, biut in case it will happen the Israelis will kill him because they know it will be the beginning of their end

(October 18, 2024 at 2:21 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(October 18, 2024 at 2:14 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: The point is -- you criticize Harris for not attending the rallies the world over, but are silent on Trump not doing so as well.

All the while ignoring the fact that neither are running for president of the world.

I hereby criticize Donald Trump for not opposing genocide. He is bad. It's bizarre to me that I have to say this.

Neither is running for president of the world. Both are running for president of the country that arms and funds the genocide. That blocks all UN resolutions against Israeli crimes. 

Do you think weakening Israel and damaging our relations with them will increase the chance of peace?

Do you think increasing the relative strength of Iran and her proxies in the region will be an improvement in the situation in the Middle East?

(October 18, 2024 at 11:50 am)Angrboda Wrote: Do you think weakening Israel and damaging our relations with them will increase the chance of peace?

Do you think increasing the relative strength of Iran and her proxies in the region will be an improvement in the situation in the Middle East?

As a scientist by training I am used to try things and observe the effects. So far the US tried a lot to strenghten Israel and this never lead to peace, just remember that Rabin was killed by a ultranationalist Israeli that opposed the peace plan.
It is for Israel like fiighting with an armour, because you know tha US will act as an armour. If they know that they will not receive help from the US they will be way more supportive of finding a peace deal with a 2 state solution (the only solution that will bring if not peace but at least something close to it).
Israel is shooting at the UNIFIL force on Lebanon for example. If there were a UN peace corp in Donbass and Putin would shoot the UN peace force, what would you think of Russia?
Having this double standard is reducing the moral authority of the global West worldwide

Then again, we all know what happens when you corner a wild animal.

Israel perceives Hamas, Hezbollah, and the populations supporting them are an existential threat. Given October 7, they have a point.

Withdrawing support, besides cutting off any ability to use diplomacy to argue for different results, could itself make things worse.

(October 18, 2024 at 12:07 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Then again, we all know what happens when you corner a wild animal.

Who should be the cornered animal?
As I said, Putin is a kind of dictator that moved war and occupied Ukraine. Nethanyau is taking land in the west bank and building houses for Israelis hampering free movement to the palestinians and turning the supposed land they should own in a 2 state solution.
Radical Israelis settlers do real pogroms (pogrom is the word used by the Israeli army to describe what the settlers do to palestinians and they anyway arrive always "when it is too late") to the palestinians, but hey, Israel is west so their pogrom is acceptable to us whereas Putin invasion of DOnbass not.
Don't you see the double standard? That is why the developing world is leaning toward China and the autocratic states, because we look to them too double standard.
This is a real problem for us as part of the global west
What has been the influence over Israel so far of the US support? Just a slap on the wrist when they kill UN personnel and say "come on, please try not to do ita again thouygh even if you will do who cares"?
MOre than 140 journalist killed so far in Gaza, more than 40.000 persons. I know it is difficult to distinguish a civilian from a guerrilla fighters but they Israel lok like the king of Franxce during the Catari crusade "kill them all, God will know who is innocent and go ti heaven and who is guilty and go to hell", but that was 800 years ago...

Moral authority might not mean as much as it once did, if it ever did, in the current trend of rightwing authoritarian rule. As a matter of actual and practical fact, though, "moral currency" is the only item on the table for the us in this case. Israel is going to continue with it's gaza project regardless of what level of funding or support they have from the us on the matter. They've proven this time and again, including when they were under us embargo.

The only action the us could take, here, that would come with a credible expectation that it would protect palestinian lives is direct protection. Whether that's a good or bad idea, morally or practically, I think can be laid aside, because we have exhausted ourselves as a global force for good in either sense over the passed few decades. We aren't going to invite them all here - as if they would all want to come.....and we aren't going to send our military there to cover them...as if they would all want that.... Bringing us right back round to moral currency. How many moral coins do you get for very loudly saying you'll do anything to help, except what would help?

(October 18, 2024 at 12:15 pm)europeanatheist Wrote:

(October 18, 2024 at 12:07 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Then again, we all know what happens when you corner a wild animal.

Who should be the cornered animal?
As I said, Putin is a kind of dictator that moved war and occupied Ukraine. Nethanyau is taking land in the west bank and building houses for Israelis hampering free movement to the palestinians and turning the supposed land they should own in a 2 state solution.
Radical Israelis settlers do real pogroms (pogrom is the word used by the Israeli army to describe what the settlers do to palestinians and they anyway arrive always "when it is too late") to the palestinians, but hey, Israel is west so their pogrom is acceptable to us whereas Putin invasion of DOnbass not.
Don't you see the double standard? That is why the developing world is leaning toward China and the autocratic states, because we look to them too double standard.
This is a real problem for us as part of the global west
What has been the influence over Israel so far of the US support? Just a slap on the wrist when they kill UN personnel and say "come on, please try not to do ita again thouygh even if you will do who cares"?
MOre than 140 journalist killed so far in Gaza, more than 40.000 persons. I know it is difficult to distinguish a civilian from a guerrilla fighters but they Israel lok like the king of Franxce during the Catari crusade "kill them all, God will know who is innocent and go ti heaven and who is guilty and go to hell", but that was 800 years ago...

You are aware that two parties who Netanyahu's coalition requires have threatened to abandon the coalition if Bibi settles. You are also, I assume, aware, that Bibi is under threat of prosecution for corruption, a threat which has largely been mooted by the conflict.

(October 18, 2024 at 12:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  Bringing us right back round to moral currency.  How many moral coins do you get for very loudly saying you'll do anything to help, except what would help?

I am pretty sure that if the US would say "ok Israel, we will not shhot down rockets or drones aimed at your territory and we will not send you weapons" then they will try at lightspeed to make a kind of peace deal.
Keeping on telling them "ok, just pretend to do something for the palestinians while you in between try to kill as much as possible ofthem and destroy their infrastructure so they will move away and you will take their land, no one will dare to say anything because we are the mighty ones" I think will not lead to any peace
Really, I think Hamas is a bunch of caveman troglodytes and I am happy for everyone of them that die, but the fact that they are killing some many kids deliberately will just lead to a vengeance spiral.
Imagine you are a palestianian kid, after bombing you hear the scream oif your sister under a pile of rubble, manage somehow to bring her to hospital and hear her scream while they are amputating her legs without anesthesia (that is daily occurrance there), what do you think will be the goal of your life? Kill as many israeli as possible.

(October 18, 2024 at 12:23 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You are aware that two parties who Netanyahu's coalition requires have threatened to abandon the coalition if Bibi settles. You are also, I assume, aware, that Bibi is under threat of prosecution for corruption, a threat which has largely been mooted by the conflict.

I know that very well, I work with 2 Israeli companies and though this subject is sensistive form time to time we discuss it.
And that is also why we are losing our moral suoperipority as westerners. SOme people could say "do you see democracy? Same prime minister for 20 years and he is guilty but no one can arrest him, so in order to avoid prosecution he reigns with parties that want ethnic cleansing in Gaza, then why they try to sell us democracy? LEt's go with Xi Jinping or Putin"

(October 18, 2024 at 12:27 pm)europeanatheist Wrote: I am pretty sure that if the US would say "ok Israel, we will not shhot down rockets or drones aimed at your territory and we will not send you weapons" then they will try at lightspeed to make a kind of peace deal.

The us enacted an arms embargo on israel in 1948 when five arab nations attacked and occupied the palestinian mandate.  Then, in 67, the us told israel to leave sinai and gaza and rejected israeli requests for aid.  

In both cases they "tried at lightspeed to make a kind of peace deal".  What we have now, is what that looks like.