Shell B Wrote:Michelle is right. Atheists are not welcome on theist sites. Most of them, anyway.

Indeed. I've posted on religious forums over the years to no avail.

I also have to laugh at the similarity I see on atheist forums over thread topics looking at how atheism is apparently a religion.

Atheism = the lack of belief in a god or gods, and that's it. It's amazing how many theists seem to completely misunderstand this...

Oh, if we only had some fucks to give!

fidel castronaut:
"atheism= the lack of belief in God or gods."

- You do know that definition is the most passive aggressive load of horseshit regardless of whether or not it's found in a dictionary or not right?

The very definition commits the fallacy of invincible ignorance.

If you are aware of an idea, regardless of what that idea is, you are automatically forced to form beliefs about it. It's unavoidable.

"afoiweuroij"

- you just formed a belief about the string of letter above. You have formed a belief about every letter and word in this sentence, including the .

- by the mere fact that you have been introduced to the idea of God you have formed a belief about it. You either believe God exists, believe God does not exist, or believe in the possibility of God but are unsure of God's existence or non-existence.

Those are the only three options you have regarding God's existence, because you are aware of the idea of God.

Only if you have never heard the word "God" or gods, AND were never made aware of what God is or isn't, AND personally had not considered anything relating to purpose, meaning, mortality, life, death, and a host of other ideas, could you be regardes as "lacking belief in God or gods". Of course, you could never be aware of the fact that you "lacked belief," being aware of that would mean you had formed a belief.

Beliefs are not physical things, you can not lack them like you can lack a brain. They can be strong, they can be weak, they are beliefs nonetheless. I have heard that my words are trying to tell atheists "What they believe". No. . They aren't. I have no idea what any of you believes. I just know you believe something. Even if you think you don't believe anything... that's still a belief.

What is even more interesting is that so many of you "atheists" believe in observable physical reality, which is predicated on a belief in "God". Think for yourselves, and think critically. But first, learn how to think correctly.

All it takes believe or not believe in something is blind faith. Many people have it. Atheists and theists alike. Words are just labels, the have no meaning besides that which we personally ascribe them. Religions are nothing more than groups of people who think the same way about "God" (I know, YOUR definitions of atheism and religions conveniently make it so atheism is not a religion because atheism is "not a belief" but a "lack of belief"... convenient for you, and utterly ridiculous and aggravatingly passive aggressive as I have said before). Not all Christians believe exactly the same thing, neither do all Atheists. Both are religions. One has faith that "God" exists and tries to define God, one makes believes that no definition of "God" exists, so has faith that nothing called "God" exists either. Some atheists then make the additional leap of making fun of the word "God". And yet we all believe the Sun rises in the East...and the world goes 'round.

I'm so tired of the "atheism is a religion" argument that it's barely worth fighting any more. OK, atheism is a religion. Now give me tax exempt status because I apparently worship myself or my belongings, according to fundies.

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: fidel castronaut:
"atheism= the lack of belief in God or gods."

- You do know that definition is the most passive aggressive load of horseshit regardless of whether or not it's found in a dictionary or not right?

The very definition commits the fallacy of invincible ignorance.

If you are aware of an idea, regardless of what that idea is, you are automatically forced to form beliefs about it. It's unavoidable.

You mean as opposed to simple hyper-agresive as your tone suggests? Bad form sir, bad form. Saying a definitional attrbiute to a given word is "passive agressive" is a terrible use of the language and is evidently to anyone as verbose, tangential and thus largely irrelevent.

Anyway, I've come accross all this horse shit so many times It actually makes me want to be dragged naked through a sand paper museum.

"Even if you 'think' (You actually presupposed that we are unable to use our brains so does this invalidate?) you don't believe in anything...that's still a belief" - Is it? Really?

Anyway, I identify as an agnostic atheist - I'm not 100% sure that there is no god or gods, in fact there are countless billions of gods that may or may not exist, I can't know for sure. All I require is evidence of them, and I'll re-consider my stance - so my definition of atheism actually works just fine (lack of belief in a god or gods) - I don't "believe I don't believe" (???), neither do I believe, so what would you define atheism as then? The belief in non-belief?

"But first, learn how to think correctly."

I hope it's not too cold up there in your Ivory Tower, friend.

Dude, explain how reality relies on belief in god for fucking once or stop goddamn spouting that ridiculous fucking nonsense. Your name is going to turn pink if you do not learn how to have a discussion, Acke. You have made an assertion. Work on proving that assertion before you go wildly calling people ignorant. You are actually arguing for life being an illusion in the absence of god. Not only is that ridiculously stupid, but there is not one single thing that backs up your assertion. I am playing devil's advocate in my mind and I have got shit. There is no fucking way that you can prove god=reality. Sheesh, I hope you're good looking or your god really fucked you.

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Quote:Beliefs are not physical things, you can not lack them like you can lack a brain.

Unmitigated fucking idiot.

I agree with you doubting Thomas. Saying atheism isn't a religion is like saying homosexuals can't get married. Both are ridiculous.

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Fidel my attack was not on you but on the statement "atheism is simply lack of belief".

If you don't know you are agnostic. It's fundamentally different from being atheist in my opinion. There is still a belief, you believe you don't know whether God or gods exist. Agnosticism is intellectually honest moreso than theism or atheism. We are all agnostic by definition, since God does not lend itself to vigorous proof and we cannot "know".

I am not passive aggressive. I will tell you what I think. Straight up. Sorry if I was overly verbose.

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Shell: all of reality is experienced through consciousness. If you believe in reality you must believe consciousness is real. If consciousness is real it must exist apart from sciences observation of or ideas about it. The only things science believes exists apart from it's observation or ideas about are universal constants. If consciousness is a universal constant it can correctly be called "God". Sentience as universal law responsible for the creation of the universe and everything within it. If you believe in reality you must necessarily believe in "God".

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If you cannot be confident in that consciousness is real you can not be confident in your experience of reality.

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If "you don't believe in anything" by definition you can't be conscious.

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: - You do know that definition is the most passive aggressive load of horseshit regardless of whether or not it's found in a dictionary or not right?

The very definition commits the fallacy of invincible ignorance.

That's too fucking bad because that's the definition of the term.
Atheists do not believe in god or religion. They reject the claims of religion. That is itself neither a belief nor a positive claim and you don't get to piss and moan about it just because it doesn't fit the definition you prefer.
Further, your fallacy is inappropriate.

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: If you are aware of an idea, regardless of what that idea is, you are automatically forced to form beliefs about it. It's unavoidable.

That's not how beliefs work. I take it you reject the definition of what constitutes a "Belief" too?

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: - by the mere fact that you have been introduced to the idea of God you have formed a belief about it. You either believe God exists, believe God does not exist, or believe in the possibility of God but are unsure of God's existence or non-existence.

Bullshit. I have a reason to reject the idea the god exists. I have no reason to believe that god exists, so I don't.
Your attempt to catagorically tell us that we have a belief in one idea or the other as thought they are equivelent is flat out wrong and based on so many false presuppositions that I could write a novel about it.

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: Those are the only three options you have regarding God's existence, because you are aware of the idea of God.

False Dichonomy.

(January 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm)amkerman Wrote: What is even more interesting is that so many of you "atheists" believe in observable physical reality, which is predicated on a belief in "God". Think for yourselves, and think critically. But first, learn how to think correctly.

That's cute. No, as an atheist, I don't 'believe' in reality. Reality is here, regardless of whether or not I believe it to be. Now you're just being ridiculous.

Quote:Shell: all of reality is experienced through consciousness.

The keyword here is "experienced." Everything else you just vomited can explained away by this simple fact, experience isn't everything.

Quote:If you believe in reality you must believe consciousness is real. If consciousness is real it must exist apart from sciences observation of or ideas about it.

Why? You are doing that whole saying something must be without saying why it must be so. I'm not bothering with the rest of this. You are incapable of rational conversation.

I'm pretty sure that you cannot just tell people that they must believe this or they must believe that. You are a bag of bones and flesh. All the must will run right out of you when you die and decay.

Why do all these idiots think they have to come here and twist meanings of words around in order to prove that we believe in something or other?

Look, atheism is very simple. We don't believe in any gods, because we don't see any proof. If you want us to believe in your god, show us evidence that it exists.

All this mental twisting of ideas is a waste of brainpower which they have precious little extra to fritter away.