Finally, an intelligent post.

I agree that education is the key. However, I see a problem with your precise proposal, which is indeed the stance that atheists are currently taking.

The idea is to convince these religious people that there can be no spiritual essence to reality at all. Convince them that is was a load of crap from the very beginning and get them to realize that they have been duped by ancient cultures.

However, there are two major problems with that approach.

1. Atheists can't truly prove that there is no spiritual or magical essence to reality.
2. People who need to believe in something magical are truly akin to heroin addicts.

It's unrealistic to expect them to give up their spiritual faiths cold-turkey.
It's simply an unrealistic expectation.
It would be like expecting a heroin addict to stop taking the drug cold turkey and not have any withdraw symptoms.

I claim that there is a far wiser approach.

Instead of renouncing ever imaginable spiritual idea as being utterly impossible, what we should really be doing is focusing on focusing solely on the religions that have personified "Godheads", and especially those religions that claim to have books that contain the "Word of God".

This would focus all attention on religious like the Abraham religions as being utter nonsense.

Moreover, it would give harmless religions that don't claim to have a book containing the "Word of God" more "clout".

Spiritual people who have a dire need to believe in a magical essence to life would then begin to doubt the "Word of God" religions and begin to migrate into believing in spiritual picture of reality that do not claim to have any doctrines that represent the "Word of God".

That very moment right there would be a major leap forward. It would give spiritual people something to grab onto (kind of like giving a heroin addict meth). And that way they wouldn't be so extremely violent toward rejecting the movement.

Trying to "educate" them that there can not be a spiritual essence to reality at all is foolish. For one thing atheists can't even proof that this is necessarily the case to begin with. So what sense does it even make for them to claim that it's "education"?

That approach also appear to the religious people to be a direct attack on their specific beliefs in spirituality by "non-believers".

Think of it this way,...

A religious person is like a child clinging to a teddy bear. But in the case of the Abrahamic Religions the teddy bear is contaminated and it causing the child to believe that the teddy bear speaks for a demonic God. And the child is becoming bigoted toward other people because of the teddy bear.

So we need to take the teddy bear away because it's a menace to society in general. But if you just grab the teddy bear and rip it from the child's arms the child is going to go into withdraw and emotional shock. Without the teddy bear the child feels lost and unloved.

So if instead of just taking the teddy bear away, your replace it with a fully pink rabbit that doesn't claim to speak for a demonic God, then you will have solved the problem without sending the child into a state of extreme shock and despair.

~~~~

How could this be done in reality?

Well, instead of just trying to convince people that it's 'stupid' to believe in any form of spiritual essence to reality, approach the problem in a totally different way. Simply demonstrate that religions that claim to have books that claim to be the verbatim word of God are clearly false. No science even required to demonstrate this. In short renounce the Hebrew mythology as being just as false as Greek mythology.

But then at the same time point to spiritual faiths, such as those that people like Deepak Chopra teach, or the "Law of Attraction", or the "Power of Belief", as being a 'more realistic' picture of spirituality IF such a thing exists at all.

In other words, you wouldn't need to support these harmless ideas of spirituality, but instead just support the idea that IF a spiritual essence to reality exists, these kinds of spiritual philosophies are far more likely to represent the true reality of the situation.

All of these spiritual ideas actually point to the individual as being the source of spiritual essence rather than claiming the existence of a Zeus-like Godhead who wrote commandments in books.

In short, the FIRST step in getting humanity to move away from the "God" picture is to get them to drop the idea that any books "speak for a personified godhead".

If they want to believe that there is a spiritual essence to reality and they could potentially survive death and live eternally, so what?

At least they would not longer be going around using a supposed "Book of God" as a weapon to hate each other.

It would be a major step forward.

Christianity, Islam, and even Judaism would quickly fade away. And yes, all sort of corny spiritual idea would arise proclaiming that we are eternal spirits. But so what? None of those religions could claim to "speak for a central godhead". In fact, those types of religions place everyone on equal spiritual footing. They preach that we are all one.

And like I say, you don't even need to support them as being "True". Just point to them as being far more "reasonable" than the "Jealous-God" fables of Greek and Hebrew mythology.

That way people who desperately need to believe in a spiritual essence to reality, and/or cling to an idea of a life after physical death could continue to do so, but without the ability to claim that they personally "Speak for God" because they have a book that is supposedly the "Word of God".

In other words, focus on one thing at a time.

Get rid of these "Jealous-God" religions that claim to have books that represent the "Word of God" first.

Then after they are gone, if the self-spiritual religions become a problem they could be addressed for those problems. And if they don't pose any problems, then why not let people have their harmless fairytales.

After all, why take away a child's fully bunny if it's not harming anyone?

~~~~

In summary, trying to just rip the rug of spirituality out from under people who need to believe in spirituality without giving them something else to stand on is never going to work.

You've got to give them some form of "hope". In fact, if you do that, they will be far more likely to move in that direction than not. Because in the end, HOPE is what they are truly seeking.

Asking them to give up the whole damn thing cold-turkey is never going to work. That's just going to make them cling to their teddy bear all the more.

You say, "How can we get high profile televised debates between theists and atheists?"

That is NEVER going to work.

You've got to offer them a fluffy bunny to replace the teddy bear.

Atheists can't prove that there is no spiritual essence to reality. So debated designed to try to claim that they can are necessarily bound to fail.

Don't even go there.

Instead focus entirely on what I proposed. Reveal the "Jealous-God" religions as being utterly absurd and contradicting, and point people to mystical spiritual views FIRST.

Then after the "Jealous-Gods" are dead, you can work on addressing the more subtle views of spirituality if it continues to be a problem. And if it's not a problem then just let be. What's wrong with people believing in harmless fairytales?

As long as they aren't arrogantly proclaiming to have the "Word of a Jealous God" in their hands, what's wrong with believing that there might be a spiritual essence to life?

It's the "Jealous-God Doctrines" that are the problem.

Not the idea of spirituality.

All I'm saying is to put out the correct fire.

A belief in spirituality is not the problem.

Jealous-God Doctrines are the problem!

Shouldn't we address the real problem head-on?

That's all I'm saying.

---

(February 14, 2012 at 12:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I don't see a peaceful solution to this problem, I doubt anyone else does.

Both religions claim their 'god' has told them not to kill. Both religions studiously ignore that order.

Until they are willing to pretend to follow their own holy books, asking atheists what we can do is virtually inviting wise cracks.

But that's my whole point.

Atheists aren't address the "Jealous-God-Doctrine" problem specifically.

Instead they are just demanding that any idea of a spiritual essence to reality is stupid, period amen.

They are attacking the concept of "spirituality" directly. Leaving people who need to have some sort of hope completely "without a prayer" so-to-speak.

In doing this the atheists are creating huge resistance against atheism by anyone who has spiritual leanings.

But what is the REAL PROBLEM?

The REAL PROBLEM are the Abrahamic religions with their doctrines that claim to be the commandments and directives of a personified Godhead.

Instead of taking the stance that any possible idea of a spiritual essence to reality cannot possibly be true, atheists would be far better off if they would back off from that position and just argue against the absurdity of "Jealous God Doctrines".

Take it ONE STEP at a time.

Trying to pull the rug out from under any and all ideas of spirituality and demanding that reality is nothing but a meaningless weird accident is NOT going to be attractive to spiritual-minded people.

So why even bother to go there?

The REAL PROBLEM is the "Jealous God Doctrines".

As strange as it may seem, supporting mystical spiritual philosophies that also renounce the ideas of "Jealous God Doctrines" as being at least more plausible, than the jealous God religions, would give the spiritual-minded people somewhere to move to.

As it is right now the atheists have the spiritual-minded people backed up on a cliff with no way to escape atheism. It's either give up spirituality altogether and face a purely secular existence, or defend their jealous God religions.

Well, duh. With only those TWO CHOICES they are going to defend the jealous-God religions to the hilt.

Giving them a third option of continuing to believe in spirituality without relying upon jealous-God doctrines will give them an alternative choice that a lot of spiritual-minded people would jump at.

That's all I'm saying.

What's the real problem?

A belief in spirituality in general?

Or the jealous God doctrines?

Squirt water on the more threatening fire is all I'm saying.

And thats a plain old truck load of horseshit, starting:

Quote:1. Atheists can't truly prove that there is no spiritual or magical essence to reality.

You cant prove I don't have an udetectable friend that makes fish turn to bacon, nanner, nanner. Seriously, are you this stupid?

I thought this said 'A Non-Violet Solution' when I clicked the thread.

Funny how easy it is to miss that 'N'

(February 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm)LastPoet Wrote: And thats a plain old truck load of horseshit, starting:

Quote:1. Atheists can't truly prove that there is no spiritual or magical essence to reality.

You cant prove I don't have an udetectable friend that makes fish turn to bacon, nanner, nanner. Seriously, are you this stupid?

What you might think you can prove is basically irrelevant.

The bottom line is that the jealous God religions are under attack (and rightfully so). But the people who are attacking them are refusing to offer the believes a 'safety net'.

Think of it as a hotel that's on fire.

Inside are believers in spiritual ideals.

Outsides are non-believers who are telling the people inside to "jump" out of the hotel. But they aren't offering any safety nets. They are asking the occupants of the hotel to jump into the 'black hole' or atheism.

So the believers have two choices. They can either stand their ground and go up in glorious flames believing that they are honoring their jealous Gods. Or they can jump into the meaningless 'black hole' of atheism.

Standing their ground seems like the better choice. The 'black hole' of atheism is CERTAIN DOOM.

All I'm saying is that if you change this scenario and offer "safety nets of alternative spiritual views", then a LOT of people who are in these burning hotels with abandon their jealous God doctrines and jump into one of these alternative spiritual safety nets.

But if you think that you can "prove" to these people that the 'black hole' of atheism is the only possibly choice, then you are the one who is mistaken.

They are never going to trade-in their jealous-God doctrines for the certain meaningless fate of jumping into a black hole.

That is never going to happen.

It's truly unrealistic to even expect them to make that choice.

Can I have the number for your weed dealer?

(February 14, 2012 at 2:27 pm)Abracadabra Wrote:

(February 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm)LastPoet Wrote: And thats a plain old truck load of horseshit, starting:

Quote:1. Atheists can't truly prove that there is no spiritual or magical essence to reality.

You cant prove I don't have an udetectable friend that makes fish turn to bacon, nanner, nanner. Seriously, are you this stupid?

What you might think you can prove is basically irrelevant.

The bottom line is that the jealous God religions are under attack (and rightfully so). But the people who are attacking them are refusing to offer the believes a 'safety net'.

Think of it as a hotel that's on fire.

Inside are believers in spiritual ideals.

Outsides are non-believers who are telling the people inside to "jump" out of the hotel. But they aren't offering any safety nets. They are asking the occupants of the hotel to jump into the 'black hole' or atheism.

So the believers have two choices. They can either stand their ground and go up in glorious flames believing that they are honoring their jealous Gods. Or they can jump into the meaningless 'black hole' of atheism.

Standing their ground seems like the better choice. The 'black hole' of atheism is CERTAIN DOOM.

All I'm saying is that if you change this scenario and offer "safety nets of alternative spiritual views", then a LOT of people who are in these burning hotels with abandon their jealous God doctrines and jump into one of these alternative spiritual safety nets.

But if you think that you can "prove" to these people that the 'black hole' of atheism is the only possibly choice, then you are the one who is mistaken.

They are never going to trade-in their jealous-God doctrines for the certain meaningless fate of jumping into a black hole.

That is never going to happen.

It's truly unrealistic to even expect them to make that choice.

Why would another lie be a "safety net"? And why would stark, naked truth be certain doom?

(February 14, 2012 at 2:29 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Can I have the number for your weed dealer?

Think about it.

Even secular scientists think of black holes as being the most disturbing objects in the universe. Fall into a black hole and not only can you never escape, but even the atoms, matter, and energy that make up your body can never escape.

Many scientists have found this extremely disturbing.

Yet this is what pure secular atheists proclaim about death. They proclaim that dying is like a black hole. It's a one-way ticket that leads to permanent non-existence.

And then they wonder why people find this "disturbing"?

Abra Wrote:Even secular scientists think of black holes as being the most disturbing objects in the universe. Fall into a black hole and not only can you never escape, but even the atoms, matter, and energy that make up your body can never escape.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19649_6-m...ovies.html

I don't find it any more disturbing than the sun.

(February 14, 2012 at 2:36 pm)genkaus Wrote: Why would another lie be a "safety net"? And why would stark, naked truth be certain doom?

It doesn't need to be a "lie" at all.

I'm not suggesting that these other spiritual ideas need to be supported as having 'evidence' for being true.

All I'm saying is that they can't be disproved. And that, my friend, is not a lie.

The jealous God religions can be disproved via the very contradictions that are blatantly apparent within the fables themselves. You don't even need science to prove that the Abrahamic myths are false.

You ask, "Why would start, naked truth be certain doom?".

Well, if you're referring to what pure secular atheists believe to be true, then how could it be anything other than certain doom? That's precisely what a secular atheist is selling.

To simply cease to exist when your body dies is "Certain Doom"

Perhaps you don't realize this, but that is precisely what pure secular atheism amounts to,... CERTAIN DOOM.

Quote:Giving them a third option of continuing to believe in spirituality without relying upon jealous-God doctrines will give them an alternative choice that a lot of spiritual-minded people would jump at.

In some places that "option" can get them killed. We've had enough muslims show up here who cannot let it be known that they don't believe in the whole mohammed (FHUTA) routine.

Religion is the terror of the ignorant, my friend. The jews have this vision that they are god's "chosen people." What exactly has that ever gotten them? Hitler was simply the latest example of them being rounded up and murdered. European history is littered with such events. For being's such favorites of "god" they were repeatedly overrun by every power that rolled through the region and then, after 3 revolts, the Romans finally threw their asses out.
Why didn't "god" help them? Well, religion has an answer for that. It was THEIR OWN FUCKING FAULT. Somehow they did something that pissed off their holy sky-daddy so he said "FUCK YOU - GO ROME!" And the assholes believed it.

The Arabs were oppressed by waves of conquerors and in all that time fucking allah did exactly jack shit for them. Yet the morons still believe.

You are talking about overcoming a wall of stupidity which is high and thick.