I've been thinking about this issue.

Suppose Socrates was a fictionally made character by Plato. We can still respect and honor that character.

Now Suppose he was real, and we thought he was fictional or rather didn't know whether he was fictional or real. If we respect the character describe, and it accurately describes the real person, then our respect for that person would be real.

In the same way, if Atheists don't believe Maximullly great being exists, but that maximally great being is worthy of highest honor, love, and veneration, which is synonymous with being worthy of Worship...

Then whether they believe he exists or not, or even are strong atheists whom deny such a being exists to do philosophical arguments such as the problem of evil or suffering or bad design...but they acknowledge that the hypothetical being is WORTHY of Worship....

Then they are worshiping that being, whether they know he exists or not.

What?!?

(February 15, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I've been thinking about this issue.

You're doing it wrong.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: if Atheists don't believe Maximullly great being exists, but that maximally great being is worthy of highest honor, love, and veneration, which is synonymous with being worthy of Worship...

How can atheists believe a "great being" is worthy of highest honor, love and veneration, when we don't believe in a "great being" at all.

I don't believe in a magical sky daddy, but he is worship worthy.. << WTF..

(February 15, 2012 at 7:28 pm)Loading Please Wait Wrote:

(February 15, 2012 at 6:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: if Atheists don't believe Maximullly great being exists, but that maximally great being is worthy of highest honor, love, and veneration, which is synonymous with being worthy of Worship...

How can atheists believe a "great being" is worthy of highest honor, love and veneration, when we don't believe in a "great being" at all.

I don't believe in a magical sky daddy, but he is worship worthy.. << WTF..

Well as I explained, we can believe Socrates is a honorable person worthy of high veneration, whether we know he actually existed or not.

In the same way, you can believe the maximally great being is worthy of worship, whether you believe he exists or not.

The difference between honoring and worshiping is just in level, in principle they are the same, it's just worship is a much higher level of honoring.

So if you can honor Socrates whether you know he exists or not, then you can honor God whether you know he exists or not.

(February 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well as I explained, we can believe Socrates is a honorable person worthy of high veneration, whether we know he actually existed or not.

You can, if you're the sort of person who doesn't make much of a distinction between what you believe and what you know.

Some of us are a bit more particular in that regard.

(February 15, 2012 at 7:40 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(February 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well as I explained, we can believe Socrates is a honorable person worthy of high veneration, whether we know he actually existed or not.

You can, if you're the sort of person who doesn't make much of a distinction between what you believe and what you know.

Some of us are a bit more particular in that regard.

That doesn't have to do with anything.

Suppose I didn't believe Socrates exists. I don't believe he didn't exist either. I don't believe either way. Yet when it comes to his description, I honor "Socrates" - not knowing or believing he exists or doesn't exist.

In fact, even if I believed he was a fictional character, and turns out he exists, and the descriptions were accurate, then I would be honoring that person, if I found his description to be honorable and worthy of veneration.

It doesn't have anything to do with whether you value what you know as opposed to what you believe.

We can honor fictional characters, and if turns out their real, then we have honored real characters.

Supposed we watched a movie that was based on a real story and we didn't know it was based on a true story, and we thought it was fictional. If we honor the main character, we are honoring the real person in the true story as well.

Supposedly there are atheists who are actually agnostic with respect to whether or not there can be a spiritual essence to reality.

In fact, according to this very website, even Strong Atheists (like myself) are supposed to be able to believe in "gods" if they so desire.

Here's a direct quote from the thread on "Important Information for Theists" from this very website forum:

Important Information for Theists thread Wrote:Agnostic (weak) atheist

This is the most typical kind of atheist. An agnostic atheist will admit that there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a god but chooses not to believe. This is largely but not exclusively due to the lack of evidence.

Gnostic (strong) atheist

Strong atheism is a position that certain types of gods definitely do not exist. An atheist may be gnostic towards the non-existence of some types of gods yet an agnostic atheist towards other types of gods.

In fact, I haven't seen a definition yet that defines an atheists as someone who actually demands that no possible spiritual essence of reality can possibly be true, and/or that this has been ruled-out by scientific knowledge.

Yet at the very same time, this is precisely the stance that many so-called "atheists" are taking on this very forum.

Moreover, they are demanding that I'm a complete idiot and fraud for even suggesting that I have an open mind to a spiritual essence of reality.

Even thought I'm a Strong Atheist, and merely an Agnostic Spiritualist, they proclaim that I'm a complete idiot and fraud for even suggesting that we should keep an open mind.

They truly seem to believe that any possible spiritual essence to reality has been proved to be ruled out. That itself is utter nonsense, IMHO.

These people who claim to be 'atheists' and take this kind of stance, are not only being unrealistic and spreading lies about what is truly known, but they are also giving atheism a bad name at the same time.

They really aren't much different from hardcore Christian fundamentalist who preach that Jesus demands that everyone must buy into their personal bigoted views of Christianity.

These hardcore "Atheist" fundamentalists are basically preaching that any and all spiritual concepts have been positively ruled out.

That is actually an flat-out lie, and basically misrepresents "atheism". Especially if you go by the definitions given by this very website.

According to this website, an atheist is supposed to also be permitted to be agnostic with respect to a possible spiritual or mystical essence to reality, or even with respect to certain "gods" actually.

I read these "rules threads" specifically in detail before I joined. I wouldn't have even joined if they proclaimed an atheist to be someone who flatly denies any and all possible concepts of spirituality or mysticism.

So some of the so-called 'atheists' on these forums are trying hard to change what 'atheism' even means.

And they are totally rejecting agnosticsm altogether proclaiming instead that all concepts of a spiritual essence to reality have indeed been ruled out.

I say baloney. Those are outright lies and misrepresentations of even atheism.

(February 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well as I explained, we can believe Socrates is a honorable person worthy of high veneration, whether we know he actually existed or not.

You're absolutely correct. We can believe in anything.
That doesn't make it real though.

(February 15, 2012 at 7:54 pm)Loading Please Wait Wrote:

(February 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well as I explained, we can believe Socrates is a honorable person worthy of high veneration, whether we know he actually existed or not.

You're absolutely correct. We can believe in anything.
That doesn't make it real though.

True, but if he were real, we would have honored him. Even if we believed he didn't exist, if we believed he was worthy of honor..then we have honored the real person.

So the conclusion is Atheists can not believe in God but still Worship Him.