(April 14, 2012 at 2:20 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:00 am)Cinjin Wrote:

Drich Wrote:Righteousness says: it is always a sin to lie no matter what the reason.

Wait ... what?

So you're claiming that all lying is a sin??? Your righteous god can commit genocide on a whim, but I'm not allowed to lie to a telephone marketer?!!? *facepalm*

A French man living in Germany in the 1940's lies to a German SS officer and says that he's not hiding any Jews in his basement. Subsequently, he saves an entire family of god's chosen people, but sins, bringing god's disdain on himself for lying to a murdering brute.

Fuck your god

You seem to be missing a bit of the equation. In that God's righteousness is not/Can not be obtained by our efforts. It is a gift given to all who believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

That means righteousness is still obtainable even if you lie to the German officer to save your friend/family.

How is god righteous if:
1) He condones and encourages genocide
2) He condones and encourages slavery
3) He condones beating slaves to an extent where they die a few days after the beating

And yes, there are bible quotes that say all of these things, and worse. Also, don't go bitching about context, because all of these 3 are despicable no matter where or why they are said or done.

As I have long said: If god were real, it would be necessary to rebel against him him, as it is necessary to rebel against ALL totalitarian dictatorships. Even if god were real, he would be unworthy of my worship, only my utmost contempt.

(April 14, 2012 at 1:55 am)Drich Wrote: I say that to help those looking to frame questions based on "morality." Most of the time it is used an absolute standard when in fact it is not.

Says who? I think most would agree morality is definitely relative according to the society which creates it.

Righteousness is the application of an absolute morality which appears absurd during changes in the moral zeitgeist.

There are some relative morality which are universal, murder has always been one of these things, not because of righteousness, but because some rules simply cannot persist in a successful society in order for it to survive.

(April 14, 2012 at 1:55 am)Drich Wrote: Morality is not true Righteousness or God's Righteousness. God's Righteousness is a sinless standard no one can achieve.

How do you define gods "righteousness"?

What does that mean to you?


Another question.

If you had to lie in order to save the lives of others would you do so?

Even though it means committing a "sin"

And if not, why not?

Drich Wrote:Righteousness says: it is always a sin to lie no matter what the reason.

This is the problem that people have with your utlimate standard of morality as it attempts to make black and white issues out of very gray ones.

So I ask you this question. Is it always wrong to sin, or in otherwords, is it a sin for me to lie even when it will save someone's life?

(April 14, 2012 at 2:36 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:20 am)Drich Wrote: You seem to be missing a bit of the equation. In that God's righteousness is not/Can not be obtained by our efforts. It is a gift given to all who believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

That means righteousness is still obtainable even if you lie to the German officer to save your friend/family.

So after saving your god's chosen people, I have to ask forgiveness for not telling the truth?? And only then do I get the righteousness? I often lied to my grandmother as a kid. I would tell her that I was going to the arcade when I was really going to play football because she was terrified that I would get seriously hurt playing that sport. There was no malicious intent in that lie ... therefore there is no sin, unrighteousness, etc etc.

If you and/or your god think there is, that's your business, but I know many Christians who do not think the way you do. Are you a true Christian or are they?

... let me just guess ...

You guys twist things to suit your own arguments or if you prefer a formal evaluation you have created a straw man fallacy rather than address the biblical definitions I have post at least a dozen times.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

---

(April 14, 2012 at 7:17 am)Thomas Kelly Wrote: People,

A link below of a definition in Oxford Dictionaries website I guess.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition...q=morality

Do you not understand the point or purpose of this thread?

You can not take a popular understanding or concept and directly compare it to the standard of God. Why because it would be a dishonest comparison.

If the Standard of God has been known for 1000's of years then it would not be difficult to change the standard to suit a sense of self righteousness to persecute God.

If you are going to honestly compare a 2000+ year old understanding of God then you have to use the same comparative standard of morality.

(April 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm)Drich Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:36 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:20 am)Drich Wrote: You seem to be missing a bit of the equation. In that God's righteousness is not/Can not be obtained by our efforts. It is a gift given to all who believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

That means righteousness is still obtainable even if you lie to the German officer to save your friend/family.

So after saving your god's chosen people, I have to ask forgiveness for not telling the truth?? And only then do I get the righteousness? I often lied to my grandmother as a kid. I would tell her that I was going to the arcade when I was really going to play football because she was terrified that I would get seriously hurt playing that sport. There was no malicious intent in that lie ... therefore there is no sin, unrighteousness, etc etc.

If you and/or your god think there is, that's your business, but I know many Christians who do not think the way you do. Are you a true Christian or are they?

... let me just guess ...

You guys twist things to suit your own arguments or if you prefer a formal evaluation you have created a straw man fallacy rather than address the biblical definitions I have post at least a dozen times.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

You are still saying that the lie told to save lives is a sin, which is what Cinjin was saying.

(April 14, 2012 at 7:37 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: The Golden Rule. Pre-dates monotheism. Makes sense on an instinctual, biological, psychological, emotional, and physical scale. Ties in with biological altruism which is demonstrated in nature in many herd, flock, and/or pack-based creatures.

That's great, but how does the golden rule have anything to do with what is being discussed? Morality, righteousness and the golden rule are not even in the same category biblically speaking.

Quote:There. Morality. On an instinctual, biological level. Makes far more sense than your vague grasp-at-smoke struggling attempt to define it within the confines of a "fitting with modern religion against old religion" sense.

How so? simply by incorporating the term "morality" with a rule?

Please take the time and explain.

---

(April 14, 2012 at 7:43 am)tobie Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:20 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 14, 2012 at 2:00 am)Cinjin Wrote:

Drich Wrote:Righteousness says: it is always a sin to lie no matter what the reason.

Wait ... what?

So you're claiming that all lying is a sin??? Your righteous god can commit genocide on a whim, but I'm not allowed to lie to a telephone marketer?!!? *facepalm*

A French man living in Germany in the 1940's lies to a German SS officer and says that he's not hiding any Jews in his basement. Subsequently, he saves an entire family of god's chosen people, but sins, bringing god's disdain on himself for lying to a murdering brute.

Fuck your god

You seem to be missing a bit of the equation. In that God's righteousness is not/Can not be obtained by our efforts. It is a gift given to all who believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

That means righteousness is still obtainable even if you lie to the German officer to save your friend/family.

How is god righteous if:
1) He condones and encourages genocide
2) He condones and encourages slavery
3) He condones beating slaves to an extent where they die a few days after the beating

And yes, there are bible quotes that say all of these things, and worse. Also, don't go bitching about context, because all of these 3 are despicable no matter where or why they are said or done.

Simple. Righteousness is not a intrinsic standard in which to judge God.

Righteousness is whatever God wills. If that means smashing babies against rocks then blessed be the name of the Lord. Like wise if that means having to forgive you for smashing my kid against a rock because we have been commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven then, blessed be the name of the Lord.

---

(April 14, 2012 at 7:57 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: As I have long said: If god were real, it would be necessary to rebel against him him, as it is necessary to rebel against ALL totalitarian dictatorships. Even if god were real, he would be unworthy of my worship, only my utmost contempt.

As God has long said (since the garden) that is your right. That is the purpose of this life, so you will know without doubt when you face judgement where your heart lies.

(April 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm)Drich Wrote: You guys twist things to suit your own arguments or if you prefer a formal evaluation you have created a straw man fallacy rather than address the biblical definitions I have post at least a dozen times.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

WE twist things to suit our own arguments?!? You sheeple are the kings of mental gymnastics. You guys made contextual contortion into an ART form! If we're the Kettle, than you sir are the Pot.

(April 14, 2012 at 12:23 pm)Drich Wrote: Righteousness is whatever God wills. If that means smashing babies against rocks then blessed be the name of the Lord. Like wise if that means having to forgive you for smashing my kid against a rock because we have been commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven then, blessed be the name of the Lord.

I just got a little nauseous. This sentiment is what makes Christians frightening and Muslims terrifying. Why you may ask? Because "god's will" is decided by the person wielding the weapon in question and most often, when the violent "hand of god" has completed the atrocity, you'll hear the words, "blessed be the name of the Lord."

People,

I guess some people may have complained that I have posted evidence and not used other words apart from the evidence.

I guess some people want the evidence as pure as possible.

May be someone will question the assertions in the evidence also I guess I advise such a person that the reason may be in testing like may have been proven to you in the thread in Bible Unlocked Thread from this forum I Guess.

Part of the evidence I guess.

Chapter XIII.—Superiority of Christian Morality.

'But let this be our study, that if those who err do not commit murder, we should not even be angry; if they do not commit adultery, we should not even covet another’s wife; if they love their neighbours, we should love even our enemies

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vi....xiii.html

And for more divine knowledge go to this forums thread Bible Unlocked Thread I from the link below I guess.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-12314.html

I guess a moderator of this site instructed me not to post more links of evidence alone, maybe if you approve of me posting more you will tell your opinion to the moderators.

It may be to your advantage in the future.