(May 3, 2012 at 8:10 am)Greatest I am Wrote:

(May 2, 2012 at 7:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It's all in the name of justice. Forget compassion, forget forgiveness, forget mercy, forget love, forget kindness, justice must take place.

Even forgetting all that, infinite purposless torture is no form of justice.

Cruelty is the only reward, not justice.

Regards
DL

It's not purposeless if the purpose is to exact retribution (justice) that the person deserves.

Justice is cruel towards evil people and kind towards good people. However where does this leave compassion, forgiveness, forbearance and mercy? It seems the quality of giving everything exactly what it deserves lacks those qualities.

I know in Islam, God's Mercy and Compassion is the most emphasized quality, yet in reality, there is rather no compassion or mercy. Good people deserve paradise and get what they deserve, bad people are punished with hell and get what they deserve. If your good ought weighs your evil, you get paradise. Where is the mercy, compassion? There is none.

The Name "Ar -Rahman Ar-Raheem" is describing the opposite of what is actually shown of the Islamic God.

In Christianity, Christians don't believe they deserve paradise. They don't believe they enter there because they are good people. Rather, it has to do with believing in Christ and his sacrifice, and Christ sacrifice coupled with belief saves one by God's grace.

Yet this seems rather a two personality in God - he is merciful and compassionate to few people for simply a belief, yet is cold and unmerciful to others for simply a lack of belief. He doesn't show them grace or mercy or love.

So you have a God with contradictory attributes in Christianity.

You have a false title of Compassionate and Merciful in Islam.

Doctrine is blinding people from the real divine beauty.

(May 3, 2012 at 12:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(May 3, 2012 at 8:10 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Even forgetting all that, infinite purposless torture is no form of justice.

Cruelty is the only reward, not justice.

Regards
DL

It's not purposeless if the purpose is to exact retribution (justice) that the person deserves.

Justice is cruel towards evil people and kind towards good people. However where does this leave compassion, forgiveness, forbearance and mercy? It seems the quality of giving everything exactly what it deserves lacks those qualities.

I know in Islam, God's Mercy and Compassion is the most emphasized quality, yet in reality, there is rather no compassion or mercy. Good people deserve paradise and get what they deserve, bad people are punished with hell and get what they deserve. If your good ought weighs your evil, you get paradise. Where is the mercy, compassion? There is none.

The Name "Ar -Rahman Ar-Raheem" is describing the opposite of what is actually shown of the Islamic God.

In Christianity, Christians don't believe they deserve paradise. They don't believe they enter there because they are good people. Rather, it has to do with believing in Christ and his sacrifice, and Christ sacrifice coupled with belief saves one by God's grace.

Yet this seems rather a two personality in God - he is merciful and compassionate to few people for simply a belief, yet is cold and unmerciful to others for simply a lack of belief. He doesn't show them grace or mercy or love.

So you have a God with contradictory attributes in Christianity.

You have a false title of Compassionate and Merciful in Islam.

Doctrine is blinding people from the real divine beauty.

Well thought out and put. We are on the same page except for this.

"It's not purposeless if the purpose is to exact retribution (justice) that the person deserves."

Justice is not done if a finite offence is punished with an infinite torture.

What a person deserves is also hard to judge.
No one lives in a vacuum and so we all contribute to what the people around us are.

A wife beater for instance likely learned that it is ok to beat your wife from his father and a neighbor or two. The honor murderer has learned when it is ok to murder for honor.

In our human world an honor murderer would not lose his life for justice's sake as justice would recognize that he was made to be what he is and was not born that way.

You and I paying taxes to keep such alive and in jail is the price we pay for creating him to be what he is.

That is the missing compassion in hell.

Regards
DL

(May 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Justice is not done if a finite offence is punished with an infinite torture.

I have to agree with that. However, it doesn't change the purpose of hell is to exact justice even if we disagree that it's justice.

Quote:What a person deserves is also hard to judge.
No one lives in a vacuum and so we all contribute to what the people around us are.

A wife beater for instance likely learned that it is ok to beat your wife from his father and a neighbor or two. The honor murderer has learned when it is ok to murder for honor.

In our human world an honor murderer would not lose his life for justice's sake as justice would recognize that he was made to be what he is and was not born that way.

You and I paying taxes to keep such alive and in jail is the price we pay for creating him to be what he is.

That is the missing compassion in hell.

Regards
DL

True.

(May 3, 2012 at 5:37 am)genkaus Wrote:

(May 2, 2012 at 7:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Well it's not a show of cruelty, it is what it is, punishment for eternal sin. We gain nothing from it, that's not what hell is for, what is gained, eternal justice as promised by God. Teaearlgreyhot has been arguing that a balance between the saved and lost needs to be met, this is it. Eternal grace + eternal punishment = justice.

Except a) A sin committed temporally cannot be eternal and b) Your god's idea of sin is screwed up - what he calls sin isn't always sinful.

I'm glad God doesn't listen to people like you. A sin not forgiven is eternal, once committed it is doesn't disappear unless God forgives it. An omniscient God never forgets unless He chooses to, and He has chosen to only through His Son.

G C

Is God's will supreme?

IOW

If God wills that something happens, will it?
If God wills that something not happen, it will not happen?

Am I correct in what I wrote?

Regards
DL

According to the older pagan religions, I guess it seemed possible for their worshippers.
For me, however, God is a distant personality, an observer, a being that holds no human emotions. Even if it holds emotions that resembles ours, I'd rather have it that these are "godlike" emotions we have inherited from him.

(May 3, 2012 at 3:31 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm glad God doesn't listen to people like you. A sin not forgiven is eternal, once committed it is doesn't disappear unless God forgives it.

Wouldn't that be an awful ordeal for you in Heaven though? He may have forgiven your sins but he'll never forget you committed them.

Every time you look upon your god instead of joy and elation, you'll feel misery and despair that you've wronged him in the past. Personally I'd rather not be around such a being. Hell is a kinder more merciful fate compared to that constant state of anxiety and contempt.

Quote:An omniscient God never forgets unless He chooses to, and He has chosen to only through His Son.

He can choose another method can't he? Or is your god too weak to save?

(May 3, 2012 at 3:31 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm glad God doesn't listen to people like you. A sin not forgiven is eternal, once committed it is doesn't disappear unless God forgives it. An omniscient God never forgets unless He chooses to, and He has chosen to only through His Son.

A sin lasts only as long as the harm it causes. Your god's incapacity to forgive does not make it eternal, it simply makes your god an ass.

"Jesus loves me, this I know
'Cuz there's something in my hole."

(May 3, 2012 at 3:31 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 3, 2012 at 5:37 am)genkaus Wrote: Except a) A sin committed temporally cannot be eternal and b) Your god's idea of sin is screwed up - what he calls sin isn't always sinful.

I'm glad God doesn't listen to people like you. A sin not forgiven is eternal, once committed it is doesn't disappear unless God forgives it. An omniscient God never forgets unless He chooses to, and He has chosen to only through His Son.

A "sin" disappears once reparations have been made to the person it was committed against. I wouldn't even use the term "sin". It is a person who has done wrong in my eyes and in society's eyes, thus he has committed an offense against me. Once I forgive him, or her, then their "sin" might as well be forgotten, as nobody is hurt by it any longer. I don't need a god to forgive my sins for me, and his inability to forgive something that man already has just makes him a spiteful dick. And why through his "son"? Jesus was just a man quite like any other. Until you can furnish some legitimate, non-Christian account from the time that accounts for Jesus' resurrection, then I will continue to view him as such. In the words of Martin Luther, "Unless I am convinced by textual evidence and plain reasoning, I cannot and will not recant".