(May 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm)NoMoreFaith Wrote: As in, anything they do is automatically deemed as just.. even if its genocide, murder etc etc..
Heaven must be very empty, and ironically free from most of the Popes and Saints.

No? They are incapable of evil in that they only desire to love.

I don't know about most of the Popes, but anyone who is declared a Saint is considered to be in Heaven. This does not mean that they were perfect in their lifetime--perhaps some Saints did need to spend time in Purgatory as well. The absolutely lovely St. Bernadette Soubroius actually fully expected Purgatory herself:

"They think I'm a saint... When I'm dead, they'll come and touch holy pictures and rosaries to me, and all the while I'll be getting broiled on a grill in purgatory. At least promise me you'll pray a lot for the repose of my soul."

But the title of "Saint" itself is to designate them as dwelling in Heaven. There are Saint Popes but quite a few Popes who were never declared as such, who are remembered as being quite wicked.

Quote:Its blase to say that only perfect people go to heaven, therefore no sin is committed. Humans are not black and white, perfect or completely evil. Its meaningless as a paragraph. If we discuss, that this perfection is attained through true repentence then we must also accept that those in heaven are incapable of change, which ergo, limits and perhaps annihilates free will. Free Will by its very nature requires the ability to change, otherwise actions are completely determined.

The goal of Christianity is to be perfect as God is perfect. With God's grace, yes it is possible to be perfect, again, according to most of Christianity. And if you think that choosing perfection means you have no "free will" then we don't have "free will" even now. I would never hurt my brother for example, because I love him too much. I don't personally think this means that my own free will was compromised, though I know some people can come up with some pretty interesting definitions for what they think real "free will" is.

Quote:Since part of the "reasons to go to hell" involve non-belief, one would consider that one would give repentence a pretty good go.

Unless you are basically saying, that non-belief in God, means you are completely evil in every aspect, which is non-compatible with .. the real world.

This is a peculiarly black and white way to think of things, all the evil you can eat, as long as you follow up feeling genuine remorse, and you're "PERFECT" for eternity.
A person who dedicates their life to making life good for their fellow man, doesn't believe in God. Sent to hell with no opportunity for remorse for that simple lack of belief.

Non-belief in God does not make you completely evil. It doesn't even send you to Hell necessarily, since all sin/evil requires knowledge, consent, and grave matter. "Non-belief in God" itself can qualify as a grave matter--but there are many issues which can compromise knowledge+consent which lessen culpability. Anyone who still strives to know God, and who loves as completely as possible, can one day find God. But any evil act, even one, is incompatible with God, who is love. To die in that state means you remain out of his grace forever--and there's no repentance if you are permanently alienated from all goodness and all love.

Also no, its not "all the evil you can eat, as long as you follow up feeling genuine remorse". Remorse alone doesn't erase sin or the temporal effects of sin--that comes from Purgatory. Remorse for your sins can make the difference between Purgatory or Hell though.

Quote:Well, you are catholic, so inventing new worlds is hardly new, except when you have to say "whoops, never existed anyway". What happened to Limbo anyway?

Limbo is where its always been. Limbo is now, and always has been, an "acceptable belief", something which is not canonical but still can be believed in if you choose. The Pope simply re-stated what the Catholic Church's position on Limbo, and the media had a field day talking about "the Pope closing Limbo". The media is terrible when it comes to talking about Catholic issues (or any issue which requires them to do more than 10 minutes of homework).

Quote:Basically, your concept of heaven becomes this torturous existence, where you do not CONFORM to God's standards, and therefore are sent to purgatory until your freewill is crushed (remember, perfection is incompatible with free will).

I don't think there is anything tortuous about "conforming to God's standards". I long to serve God and my fellow man, and to love God and others completely, giving everything of myself. There is nothing that I want more.

I freely choose perfection and I freely choose to strive to be perfect. I have no idea if I will even make it to purgatory, but I can certainly hope. Purgatory is merely a process in which people are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin and evil, and yes, I would love to be cleaned of the effects of sin. It is painful and trying but much better that than remaining in evil for all eternity.

Quote:Thankfully, its a nasty piece of thinking, which is all the more astounding that it is plucked from the air, with hardly reference in the bible itself.

You'd think something like that would be worth mentioning.....

Clearly 12th century catholics decided the bible hadn't plagiarised enough from Zoroastrianism and others.

Not everything is in the Bible. That being said, Purgatory is referenced in 2 Maccabees 12, Matthew 5, Matthew 12, and Revelation 21.

"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."--2 Machabees 12,46. Mentions the dead being "loosed from sin". Those who split off from the Church (Protestants) ended up removing this book from their canon altogether.

"Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing."--Matthew 5,26. Mentions "repayment" for sins after "judgement"

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."--Matthew 12, 32. Mentions sins being forgiven in the "world to come": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the exception to the rule.

It is mentioned in the earliest of Church Traditions (and even before, to Jewish traditions), and is certainly not "plucked from the air" or a product of the middle ages. The word Purgatory is from the Middle Ages, but the process of being cleansed from sin can be called whatever you like.

Of course this is very Catholic, so I am sure some of the other posters would disagree. If I misunderstood any of your questions or was unclear, please excuse me. I am a bit sick atm.

(May 12, 2012 at 2:20 pm)Aiza Wrote: People in Heaven are 'incapable' of sinning the way God is 'incapable' of sinning.

Heaven, partaking of God's divine nature, is something which is only possible if you are perfect. A perfect person doesn't commit any evil--if they committed evil, they wouldn't be perfect after all, and they wouldn't have been in Heaven.

Its sort of the flip question of "can someone in Hell repent?" Hell is the absence of any good, so any genuine feelings of remorse for sin and the seed of goodness which is allowed to bring that repentence, isn't compatible with hell.

What makes a person perfect? IOW, what causes people to lose the ability to do evil?

I would agree, those things are not compatible with the idea of hell (insofar as it is commonly presented), but that doesn't answer the question (only makes it more pressing). Why are people unable to repent in hell? What causes them to lose the ability to repent?

Sounds to me like both cases are situations where people no longer have an ability or trait which has been claimed to be the benchmark for this life. Indeed the entire point and purpose. Is the ability to choose yay or nay removed upon death, if so why, and if so why can't the same be done during this life in choice situations by the same agent?

(May 12, 2012 at 2:20 pm)Aiza Wrote: People in Heaven are 'incapable' of sinning the way God is 'incapable' of sinning.

Heaven, partaking of God's divine nature, is something which is only possible if you are perfect. A perfect person doesn't commit any evil--if they committed evil, they wouldn't be perfect after all, and they wouldn't have been in Heaven.

Its sort of the flip question of "can someone in Hell repent?" Hell is the absence of any good, so any genuine feelings of remorse for sin and the seed of goodness which is allowed to bring that repentence, isn't compatible with hell.

Well if people in hell could not repent thought to lack of good, I would seem God would be a bit of a ass or not all powerful, because if people truly repents then God would see this and maybe bring time up, maybe there is a place that's in-between heaven and hell for thought who are not that bad.

(May 13, 2012 at 3:36 am)Aiza Wrote: I don't know about most of the Popes, but anyone who is declared a Saint is considered to be in Heaven.

Please explain how we can possibly know that someone is in "heaven". That isn't a decision made by people. Maybe some of these people who are "Saints" were secretly serial killers and child rapists. I would think your deity would bar such a person from eternal paradise. Therefore, isn't it rather presumptuous of people to declare someone to be a "Saint"?

Quote:Non-belief in God does not make you completely evil.

Oh, so it only makes you somewhat evil?

Quote:"Non-belief in God" itself can qualify as a grave matter--but there are many issues which can compromise knowledge+consent which lessen culpability.

I know about your deity. I'm familiar with your Babble. And I reject it completely. Does that mean I'm spending eternity in a firepit next to Stalin and Hitler?

Quote:Also no, its not "all the evil you can eat, as long as you follow up feeling genuine remorse".

I've asked believers "if Hitler genuinely expressed remorse for his actions just before he died, would he be in heaven?" and they almost always respond "yes". Do you disagree?

Quote:Remorse alone doesn't erase sin or the temporal effects of sin--that comes from Purgatory. Remorse for your sins can make the difference between Purgatory or Hell though.

And you know this nonsense is factual.... how?

Quote:Mentions sins being forgiven in the "world to come": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the exception to the rule.

The Holy Spirit doesn't exist! It's a fraud! I spit on the Holy Spirit!

Am I now doomed to hell for eternity?

I'm trying to find purgatory in my bible.....damn, doesn't seem to be in there. Well, no matter, it's not like I look to the bible to fact check things. There's plenty of shit that isn't in there but exists nevertheless, so I guess this is just one of those things?

You won't find it. Its made up shit....just like all the rest of it.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/ro...0505W3.htm

Quote:The Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory was officially proclaimed as dogma in 1438. This means that until that year, belief in the doctrine was not required. Purgatory is a temporary hell Catholics must attend in order to work off their sins.

The image of John Holmes "working off" some sin on various catholic priests comes to mind. That would be pretty efficient management by the almighty if you ask me.

(May 13, 2012 at 2:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:The Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory was officially proclaimed as dogma in 1438. This means that until that year, belief in the doctrine was not required. Purgatory is a temporary hell Catholics must attend in order to work off their sins.

I see... kind of like how cadets at service academies have to work off demerits by marching around the quad for hours at a time.

Except that the cadets are actually working something off, not pushing the "debt" over to some "next life" that will never come/be completely irrelevant to what was done and to whom in this life.