(August 28, 2009 at 8:46 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Truth, I looked at that article and one thing jumped out to me: believe. The archeological find is interesting, no doubt. However a scientist saying the "believe" it to be the first Christian church is far different from concluding that it was.

They found artifacts such as coins, pottery, and stone seating arrangements. Very familiar with other Christian Churches in nearby areas. Except this Church predates all others. This proves 'Christ Worship' predates the Bible by a few decades. This puts to rest the theory that atheists claim. Jesus was a mythical invention in the bible.

Quote:Furthermore, you did not meet void's criteria. If this church is in fact what the archeologists say it is, it does not prove the validity of Christianity, only that there were earlier Christians than previously thought. Nothing more.

He asked for one single piece of evidence that proves Christianity rises above all others. I have shown evidence of Christ worship existing long before the Bible was written. If you can find evidence of people worshipping Allah long before the Koran was written, I would love to see it.

This discovery proves Jesus Christ existed, and he was worshipped as a God, as the bible claims.

This amazing discovery should have you thinking. Were the Gospels actually telling the truth about this man (who left behind no evidence of his existence)?

Secondly, eyewitnesses from Jesus' era would have declined the Gospels (55AD) as false information.
Unless you believe all of the eyewitnesses from 33 were dead by the time the Gospels were written?

Hi there The_Truth =)

You yourself said above "who left no evidence of his existence". That is just it, my friend, there never has and never will be any evidence. Sure you can find pottery or coins from those days...some scientists also claim to have found Jesus' tomb...that can prove that a man called "Jesus" existed in those days...Hell, there are people called "Jesus" who walk the earth today all around us...but that has nothing to do with the existence of God.

And just because people worshipped God before the bible was written does not mean they aren't blinded by faith either. Some man or men must have decided that a book was needed to guide those who believed so he or they wrote the bible....that still does not in any way prove God's existence, sorry.

(August 28, 2009 at 9:22 am)The_Truth Wrote: They found artifacts such as coins, pottery, and stone seating arrangements. Very familiar with other Christian Churches in nearby areas. Except this Church predates all others. This proves 'Christ Worship' predates the Bible by a few decades. This puts to rest the theory that atheists claim. Jesus was a mythical invention in the bible.

No one ever said to you Jesus was a mythical invention of the bible. Many of us are willing to accept the premise that someone named Jesus went around preaching, the question is whether or not his divinity is valid. An earlier church does nothing to prove Jesus's divinity.

Quote:He asked for one single piece of evidence that proves Christianity rises above all others. I have shown evidence of Christ worship existing long before the Bible was written. If you can find evidence of people worshipping Allah long before the Koran was written, I would love to see it.

This discovery proves Jesus Christ existed, and he was worshipped as a God, as the bible claims.

This amazing discovery should have you thinking. Were the Gospels actually telling the truth about this man (who left behind no evidence of his existence)?

Secondly, eyewitnesses from Jesus' era would have declined the Gospels (55AD) as false information.
Unless you believe all of the eyewitnesses from 33 were dead by the time the Gospels were written?

By your standards, the Jews have an edge, because their religion existed way before Christianity. We know that Judaism existed before the 5 Books of Moses, since it's agreed that Moses did not write those books and instead came from about 5 different contributors that were mixed and mashed together to form the final work of the five books. And how about the greek gods? They were worshiped before Christ. Besides, you miss the point, the archeological find is not conclusively said to be an early Christian church. Until it has been proven and widely accepted as such, you're blowing smoke.

Your logic is horribly flawed, an early church, if it is proven to be such, does not prove the truth of Jesus's divinity and the accuracy of the Christian church, only that it may have existed than previously determined. Nothing more

The earliest gospel was written around 70Ad. We know Mark was not an eye witness. And should Jesus have died in 33AD by crucifixion, it is possible eyewitnesses would be dead 40 years later. Life expectancy was not that long 2000 years ago, but it's irrelevant. I honestly don't care if there were eyewitnesses alive then. It's a fact that the gospels are not contemporary evidence for Jesus, and that's the important point.

(August 28, 2009 at 8:46 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Furthermore, you did not meet void's criteria. If this church is in fact what the archeologists say it is, it does not prove the validity of Christianity, only that there were earlier Christians than previously thought. Nothing more.

Didn't we go through this one with Psalm 23? It also doesn't prove the actuality of Jesus Christ because it as easily have been a Gnostic Christian church.

Kyu

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(August 28, 2009 at 9:22 am)The_Truth Wrote: They found artifacts such as coins, pottery, and stone seating arrangements. Very familiar with other Christian Churches in nearby areas. Except this Church predates all others. This proves 'Christ Worship' predates the Bible by a few decades. This puts to rest the theory that atheists claim. Jesus was a mythical invention in the bible.

No it doesn't for two reasons ... firstly it isn't what atheists claim because many atheists believe many things and many appear to believe there was a physical person at the root of the Christ myth but more to the point many of us (myself included) take the assumptive stance that there was no Jesus Christ until demonstrated otherwise; secondly it could have been a Gnostic Christian church and doesn't prove the literal physical existence of your messiah.

(August 28, 2009 at 9:22 am)The_Truth Wrote: He asked for one single piece of evidence that proves Christianity rises above all others. I have shown evidence of Christ worship existing long before the Bible was written.

No you haven't god boy!

(August 28, 2009 at 9:22 am)The_Truth Wrote: Secondly, eyewitnesses from Jesus' era would have declined the Gospels (55AD) as false information. Unless you believe all of the eyewitnesses from 33 were dead by the time the Gospels were written?

There were no direct eye-witnesses to the claimed existence of Jesus Christ.

Kyu

(August 28, 2009 at 9:40 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: No one ever said to you Jesus was a mythical invention of the bible. Many of us are willing to accept the premise that someone named Jesus went around preaching, the question is whether or not his divinity is valid. An earlier church does nothing to prove Jesus's divinity.

Well, then my apologies. I thought atheists believed Jesus Christ never existed, and that he was a mythical story invented by the Gospel writers.

Quote:By your standards, the Jews have an edge, because their religion existed way before Christianity. We know that Judaism existed before the 5 Books of Moses, since it's agreed that Moses did not write those books and instead came from about 5 different contributors that were mixed and mashed together to form the final work of the five books.

This is not a comparison to the church that was unearthed. We are discussing how Jesus Christ existed before the Gospels existed.

Quote:And how about the greek gods? They were worshiped before Christ. Besides, you miss the point, the archeological find is not conclusively said to be an early Christian church. Until it has been proven and widely accepted as such, you're blowing smoke.

What about the Greek gods? Can you find sufficient evidence that greek gods were worshipped long before they were written?

Quote:Your logic is horribly flawed, an early church, if it is proven to be such, does not prove the truth of Jesus's divinity and the accuracy of the Christian church, only that it may have existed than previously determined. Nothing more

This cave proves Jesus was worshipped in some form or another. the Gospels claim Jesus was worshipped, now 2,000 years later, we find evidence of Christ worship that predates the bible by a few decades. This discovery only makes me believe in Jesus even more.

Quote:The earliest gospel was written around 70Ad.

Wrong. The earliest Gospel was written between 50-55ad. Roughly 20 years after Christ. Why did the Gospels waited 20 years is a mystery.

Quote:We know Mark was not an eye witness. And should Jesus have died in 33AD by crucifixion, it is possible eyewitnesses would be dead 40 years later. Life expectancy was not that long 2000 years ago, but it's irrelevant. I honestly don't care if there were eyewitnesses alive then. It's a fact that the gospels are not contemporary evidence for Jesus, and that's the important point.

I find it hard to believe that every single eyewitness from 33 was dead by the time the first Gospel was written. Are you suggesting a man in his early 20's from 33ad was dead by 55ad? The Gospels didn't have enough time to make up such a mythical story. If I write a book in 2009 about a man who lived in 1990 and he raised the dead, and healed the blind, I'm sure people that lived in 1990 would call my book a fraud. Surely you would demand evidence. But what evidence did the Gospels have to carry on this story?

Quote:I thought atheists believed Jesus Christ never existed, and that he was a mythical story invented by the Gospel writers.

The sole characteristic shared by all atheists is that we have not accepted any claims about the existence of a god or gods. Whether a given person believes an itinerant rabbi by the name of jesus did or did not existed at some distant point in the past is a non-factor for that person's atheism.

(August 28, 2009 at 10:17 am)The_Truth Wrote: Well, then my apologies. I thought atheists believed Jesus Christ never existed, and that he was a mythical story invented by the Gospel writers.

Some do, not all. Atheists simply lack a belief in God, the rest is individual to that atheist.

Quote:This is not a comparison to the church that was unearthed. We are discussing how Jesus Christ existed before the Gospels existed.

Uhhh, no shit he existed before the gospels if he existed at all. What's your point?

Quote:What about the Greek gods? Can you find sufficient evidence that greek gods were worshipped long before they were written?

This little distinction of worship before it was written is entirely irrelevant. There are many old religions that existed before the written language, or existed as oral tradition. You just don't. get. it. It doesn't matter if there were worshipers before a holy book was written. It's doesn't make the religion true, which you seem to think it does.

Quote:This cave proves Jesus was worshipped in some form or another. the Gospels claim Jesus was worshipped, now 2,000 years later, we find evidence of Christ worship that predates the bible by a few decades. This discovery only makes me believe in Jesus even more.

Good for you. It proves absolutely nothing to us, which was the point of Void's question.

Quote: Wrong. The earliest Gospel was written between 50-55ad. Roughly 20 years after Christ. Why did the Gospels waited 20 years is a mystery.

No. You are wrong. The consensus is that it was written around 70CE. Unless someone can conclusively prove with empirical evidence that it was written earlier, which it hasn't been, then I'm sticking with the That consensus. It's only ever been conjectured with theories of the Q Gospel. That's not the standard of evidence we need to conclude it was written earlier.

Quote:I find it hard to believe that every single eyewitness from 33 was dead by the time the first Gospel was written. Are you suggesting a man in his early 20's from 33ad was dead by 55ad? The Gospels didn't have enough time to make up such a mythical story. If I write a book in 2009 about a man who lived in 1990 and he raised the dead, and healed the blind, I'm sure people that lived in 1990 would call my book a fraud. Surely you would demand evidence. But what evidence did the Gospels have to carry on this story?

First of all, we disagree on the date Mark was written, of which you are completely wrong about, second life expectancy was much shorter in that day, and third and most importantly, it doesn't fucking matter because we have no contemporary writings of Jesus, no eyewitness accounts. That's a plain fact. If there were eyewitnesses, they didn't write about it.

(August 28, 2009 at 10:47 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Some do, not all. Atheists simply lack a belief in God, the rest is individual to that atheist.

Some atheists claim Jesus never existed, and that he was a made up character in the N.T.

Quote:Uhhh, no shit he existed before the gospels if he existed at all. What's your point?

Of course He existed. That is common knowledge. Jesus is the most popular figure in the history of mankind.

Quote:This little distinction of worship before it was written is entirely irrelevant. There are many old religions that existed before the written language, or existed as oral tradition. You just don't. get. it. It doesn't matter if there were worshipers before a holy book was written. It's doesn't make the religion true, which you seem to think it does.

Can you name a few religions that worship a holy figure 30 years before someone wrote about them?

Quote:Good for you. It proves absolutely nothing to us, which was the point of Void's question.

Of course it proves nothing to you. You guys don't want to admit the fact that Jesus was an actual person who was worshipped as God in precisely the year 33. Because this agrees with the New Testament.

Quote:No. You are wrong. The consensus is that it was written around 70CE. Unless someone can conclusively prove with empirical evidence that it was written earlier, which it hasn't been, then I'm sticking with the That consensus. It's only ever been conjectured with theories of the Q Gospel. That's not the standard of evidence we need to conclude it was written earlier.

At this point, it really doesn't matter if the first Gospel was written in 50ad or 90ad. The point is, Jesus was worshipped many years before they were written.

Quote:First of all, we disagree on the date Mark was written, of which you are completely wrong about, second life expectancy was much shorter in that day, and third and most importantly, it doesn't fucking matter because we have no contemporary writings of Jesus, no eyewitness accounts. That's a plain fact. If there were eyewitnesses, they didn't write about it.

It doesn't matter when the first gospel was written. We now have evidence that this Jesus figure existed in 33ad, and he had followers dwelling in caves precisely the same year he was crucified. (33ad).

If you can find conclusive evidence these cave dwellers were NOT worshipping the same Christ mentioned in the Gospels, then you guys might have an argument. But for now, I'm sticking to the discovery of this ancient cave revealed by modern archaelogists.

Quote:Here's your evidence. Jesus had followers in the year 33.

That is a statement (and an unsubstantiated one at that.) It is not evidence.


Frankly, it sounds more like a wish....or a prayer.

(August 28, 2009 at 12:31 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Here's your evidence. Jesus had followers in the year 33.

That is a statement (and an unsubstantiated one at that.) It is not evidence.


Frankly, it sounds more like a wish....or a prayer.

Yes that is evidence. Someone asked for evidence of Christianity. So I proved Jesus Christ (The founder of Christianity) was praised long before the Bible. What more proof or evidence do you want? Many atheists claim Christianity was invented by Paul long after the supposed life and death of Jesus Christ. Well, I am here to prove Jesus Christ is the inventor of Christianity, and not Paul.

Why do so many atheists reject the life, ministry and death of Jesus when clear evidence supports the New Testament writings?