A common argument I hear from apologists basically says that if Jesus wasn't really the son of God, didn't perform all those miracles, didn't really rise from the dead, and his apostles and followers didn't perform miracles and have revelations, then Christianity wouldn't lasted and become the major religion it is today. I.e., no substantial number of people would have believed it if its claims weren't true.

There are many problems with this argument, but I think one the strongest refutations of it would be just to notice how many crazy things many people believe in today's modern society. Just think of all the faith healers that many people still fall for (often literally fall for) even though they have been exposed many times to be frauds. Or take a look at how many people fall for new age alternative health solutions such as magnetic bracelets or other such useless items and are convinced in their power despite unsupporting evidence. Many believe in UFOs, ghosts, and bigfoot today still (Just see the so called History channel). And just think of those religious cults that started in 20th century that had devoted followers even to death (such as the group that killed themselves to be taken up to haley's comet or something like that). And of course, there's scientology.

Now, keep in mind, these are things that managed to become relatively prominent in today's modern literate, and scientifically and technologically advanced age. We have instant access to enormous amounts of information through the internet. It's not difficult for one to do fact checking to see how bogus, for instance, faith healers are. Yet despite the widespread literacy and the instant access to communication and information, such fanciful and ridiculous ideas persist!

Now imagine how much worse the problem would have been in ancient times without widespread literacy, without instant long distance communication, without instant and convenient access to information, and without the more rigorous scientific and critical methodology of our modern age.

This may be off topic, but it still feels like it may be germane:
I've heard Christians claim that, shortly after Jesus was crucified, there were 500 people who saw him and that this proves the resurrection took place.

Putting aside all questions of the historicity of Jesus, whether or not the 500 people has any real reference in a real incident, or whether or not it's possible that Jesus survived his Crucifixion.

How many people have seen Elvis since he died in 1977? I don't have any real numbers, but that must be in the thousands.

Very true but I have a more pressing issue that must be brought up, I think all will agree it is of the utmost importance. As you know we live in a free society but freedom is limited by the necessities and the needs that must take priority. It is not so much a matter of morality but a matter of survival and peace of mind. I am of course talking about your picture and how you should change it back to Patrick Stewart immediately. His shiny and perfectly round head is a pleasing sight to all and it has taken a severely negative toll on the psyches of many on this forum that you have decided to replace him with an inferior image. I therefore demand that he be put back in his rightful place so that this forum might once again prosper from his soothing presence.

(July 10, 2012 at 10:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Very true but I have a more pressing issue that must be brought up, I think all will agree it is of the utmost importance. As you know we live in a free society but freedom is limited by the necessities and the needs that must take priority. It is not so much a matter of morality but a matter of survival and peace of mind. I am of course talking about your picture and how you should change it back to Patrick Stewart immediately. His shiny and perfectly round head is a pleasing sight to all and it has taken a severely negative toll on the psyches of many on this forum that you have decided to replace him with an inferior image. I therefore demand that he be put back in his rightful place so that this forum might once again prosper from his soothing presence.

Just for that, I switched to a Picard picture WITH HAIR. No shiny head for you! bwahahahahahaha

(July 10, 2012 at 10:56 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(July 10, 2012 at 10:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Very true but I have a more pressing issue that must be brought up, I think all will agree it is of the utmost importance. As you know we live in a free society but freedom is limited by the necessities and the needs that must take priority. It is not so much a matter of morality but a matter of survival and peace of mind. I am of course talking about your picture and how you should change it back to Patrick Stewart immediately. His shiny and perfectly round head is a pleasing sight to all and it has taken a severely negative toll on the psyches of many on this forum that you have decided to replace him with an inferior image. I therefore demand that he be put back in his rightful place so that this forum might once again prosper from his soothing presence.

Just for that, I switched to a Picard picture WITH HAIR. No shiny head for you! bwahahahahahaha

what episode did he have hair and what was the reason?

Quote:there were 500 people who saw him and that this proves the resurrection took place.

What were their names and addresses.?

Quote:I.e., no substantial number of people would have believed it if its claims weren't true.

Common logical fallacy; argumentum ad populum (appeal to the people)

Quote:In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


I rarely bother arguing with dogmatic Christian apologists because (a) I usually find them intellectually dishonest (b) willfully ignorant © not having grasped the basics of critical thought and rational discussion. It's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a recalcitrant and rather dim 12 year old child.

(July 11, 2012 at 12:09 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 10, 2012 at 10:56 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Just for that, I switched to a Picard picture WITH HAIR. No shiny head for you! bwahahahahahaha

what episode did he have hair and what was the reason?

Episode 5x12: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/violations

Think it was a flashback memory.

(July 10, 2012 at 9:52 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: A common argument I hear from apologists basically says that if Jesus wasn't really the son of God, didn't perform all those miracles, didn't really rise from the dead, and his apostles and followers didn't perform miracles and have revelations, then Christianity wouldn't lasted and become the major religion it is today. I.e., no substantial number of people would have believed it if its claims weren't true.

There are many problems with this argument, but I think one the strongest refutations of it would be just to notice how many crazy things many people believe in today's modern society. Just think of all the faith healers that many people still fall for (often literally fall for) even though they have been exposed many times to be frauds. Or take a look at how many people fall for new age alternative health solutions such as magnetic bracelets or other such useless items and are convinced in their power despite unsupporting evidence. Many believe in UFOs, ghosts, and bigfoot today still (Just see the so called History channel). And just think of those religious cults that started in 20th century that had devoted followers even to death (such as the group that killed themselves to be taken up to haley's comet or something like that). And of course, there's scientology.

Now, keep in mind, these are things that managed to become relatively prominent in today's modern literate, and scientifically and technologically advanced age. We have instant access to enormous amounts of information through the internet. It's not difficult for one to do fact checking to see how bogus, for instance, faith healers are. Yet despite the widespread literacy and the instant access to communication and information, such fanciful and ridiculous ideas persist!

Now imagine how much worse the problem would have been in ancient times without widespread literacy, without instant long distance communication, without instant and convenient access to information, and without the more rigorous scientific and critical methodology of our modern age.

There is a problem with your reasoning, these things you mention are Johnny come lately's. They are not time tested and when they are IMO they will be long forgotten. Christianity has stood the test of time, many religions have come and gone but Christianity is still here and doing rather well. Oh and the things you mentioned and how much worse they would be in ancient times, well they were there in some form and are now gone. When something comes along has nothing to do with it lasting, it will last as long as truth is found in it.

(July 11, 2012 at 1:17 am)Godschild Wrote: ...

There is a problem with your reasoning, these things you mention are Johnny come lately's. They are not time tested and when they are IMO they will be long forgotten. Christianity has stood the test of time, many religions have come and gone but Christianity is still here and doing rather well. Oh and the things you mentioned and how much worse they would be in ancient times, well they were there in some form and are now gone. When something comes along has nothing to do with it lasting, it will last as long as truth is found in it.

Are you serious?

Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and native american religions have stood the test of time too.

It does not follow that if a belief is old and has "stood the test of time" (whatever that 'test' actually involves), that therefore that belief is true.

Quote:Christianity has stood the test of time,

You seem to imply age bestows validity;it doesn't.

Quote:Many religions have come and gone

Indeed, but Hinduisms and Buddhism are both older than Christianity and the ancient Egyptian religion lasted for over three thousand years. Its moral code has much in common with Christianity.Be happy to provide some concrete examples if you like.

Quote:but Christianity is still here and doing rather well

Still here,yes,but how well Christianity is doing is a matter of opinion. EG in my lifetime, Australia has gone from an openly 'Christian' country to a secular one, as have most northern and central European countries.

Generally speaking,religion declines with affluence and education,and thrives in poverty and ignorance.