(July 8, 2012 at 1:05 am)Drich Wrote: What if a parent leaves their adult son in charge of the house hold and that son squanders the resources of the house hold rather than feed his own brother?

I suppose if they didn't know what was happening, the parents wouldn't be to blame if they reasonably expected that their adult son would not behave that way.

(July 8, 2012 at 1:05 am)Drich Wrote: Because that is exactly what has happened here.

God left us in charge thinking we would do a better job and isn't aware of the true situation?

(July 8, 2012 at 1:05 am)Drich Wrote: If people starve it is because of 'us' who are in abundance do not share what they have in excess.

Up until about 200 years ago, 90% of the world's population was what is now defined as absolute poverty, a subsistence existence with starvation an ever-hovering danger. The other 10% couldn't have helped all the rest if it expended all of its resources trying. Your comparison only applies in recent history.

(July 8, 2012 at 1:05 am)Drich Wrote: If your analogy had any chance of being relevent to this situation, the 'parent' would have to have left ALL His Children with out food. Which is not the case. The store houses runs over, and yet our brothers starve. Is it the fault of the 'parent' who saw to filling said store houses?

It is the fault of the parent only if they foresaw what would happen and left the irresponsible adult child in charge anyway.

(July 8, 2012 at 1:05 am)Drich Wrote: Or the worthless Adult children who were put in charge of said store houses, and were commissioned to distribute the Father's wealth? Rather than distribute what has been given these worthless children point to what they have deemed as a 'lack of love' because not every corner of the father's lands are filled to over flowing. Again that is why the commission was given to distribute the excess to those who have none.

The adult children are ultimately responsible, unless their parent is aware of the situation, could right it, and allows it to continue. In the latter case, the Father shares the blame.

[quote='Thor' pid='308804' dateline='1342013326']
[quote]So when this deity is drowning babies, turning people into pillars of salt, killing firstborn sons or telling us that we can keep slaves, this is all "Good"?[/quote]Absolutly, 100% Yes. Again the 'deeds' them selves hold no intrensic value. It is the will of God the makes a deed 'good or bad.' That is why it is said we can not work our way to heaven with our 'good' deeds. Because there are no good deeds before God, apart from His Expressed Will. And that expressed will demands that we must first seek attonement, before any deeds are deemed 'good.'

[quote]Unless you can demonstrate your god exists, then right and wrong are standards that exist without "God".[/quote] why do you guys continually pull this broken trump card? Again if you are have a discussion concerning the nature of God, then you accept that he exists for the duration of the conversation. Otherwise what is the point in asking the question to begin with?

[quote]By this standard, if this deity told you to kill your children, wouldn't refusing to do so be "wrong"?[/quote]The story of aberham confrims that it would be wrong to refuse God in this circumstance. So Yes.

[quote]And how the hell are we supposed to know what is in the "expressed will" of this deity?[/quote]"Expressed" as in written.. Or Recorded in the Bible.

[quote] By referencing a confusing, unclear, contradictory mish mash of a book? Because believers can't even agree among themselves what is and isn't moral.[/quote]Because 'morality' is ever changing with the culture you live in. If 'we' Speak of God's righteousness, and remain silent where the bible is silent, then all bible based believers are united in their responses. Because the Expressed will of God is very clear.

[quote]Is stem cell research right or wrong?[/quote]Where do you get the stem cells? It is a sin to kill children for them.

[quote]What about using birth control?[/quote]Birth Control was used then, and there is no command against it. (Speak where the bible Speaks and remain silent where the bible is silent.)

[quote] How about polygamy?[/quote]
Polygamy was encouraged for a time, but by the time Christ taught it was very rare, and discouraged within the confines of the NT church. (In that no man could take a leadership role unless he was married to one woman.) however that does not mean one could not worship God or be apart of the church if he had more than one wife.

[quote] Premarital sex? [/quote]Sex outside of the bounds of a santified marriage is always a sin.

[quote]Gambling?[/quote]The act itself is not a sin, but the love of money is. Most christians who say gambling is a sin blur the lines between the gaming aspect and the resaon one must have to want to gamble to begin with.
If some believe it to be a sin then for them it is a sin. That means even if it is not a sin for me I am not allowed my freedom in gambling cause my brother to stumble. For his sake I will not gamble in front of him or encourage him to do so.

[quote] Some believers will say yes, some will say no. In which case, why should we pay any attention to you at all?[/quote]
If some say yes and some say no, and both are right, doesn't that point to a freedom beyond the confines of a soceitial based 'morality?'

(July 9, 2012 at 4:29 pm)Godschild Wrote: I doubt that the Christian friend said "tortured," if he/she did then he/she does not know scripture, I think you added that bit of tripe to embellish your statement.

Ever hear of the Law of Charity? Part of it is to not call someone a liar without a better reason than 'I don't think a Christian would say that'.

(July 11, 2012 at 2:50 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I suppose if they didn't know what was happening, the parents wouldn't be to blame if they reasonably expected that their adult son would not behave that way.

now take the step to a planetary scale. What if the parent left this task to a few billion children and say 1/3 of them did what was asked 1/3 of them starved and a 1/3 stood by and blamed the parent for not supplying everyone with an over abundance?

Quote:God left us in charge thinking we would do a better job and isn't aware of the true situation?

We were specifically designed for this task and complete in every way, until we allowed sin into our lives. Just because we have destroyed our ablity to do what is asked does not mean the task changes to suit our short commings. When is this ever true in life?

Quote:Up until about 200 years ago, 90% of the world's population was what is now defined as absolute poverty, a subsistence existence with starvation an ever-hovering danger.

Then if the standard of living was lowered then it would be poverity would it? It would be the standard of living.

Quote: The other 10% couldn't have helped all the rest if it expended all of its resources trying. Your comparison only applies in recent history.

We are only responsiable in so far as what we have been entrusted with. we have been blessed with a surplus for nearly 100 years and yet a large portion of this planet goes hungery. this may not have been a burden for our great grandfathers to bear, but it does belong to us.

Quote:It is the fault of the parent only if they foresaw what would happen and left the irresponsible adult child in charge anyway.

why do you believe their to be any fault? This life is meant to be a proving grounds and a place where we are to learn what it is to suffer as a result of sin. Seems to me the fault lies in those who seek to spend this life hiding from the 'suffering' we have been tasked to endure and alieviate.

Quote:The adult children are ultimately responsible, unless their parent is aware of the situation, could right it, and allows it to continue. In the latter case, the Father shares the blame.

what if the goal is to always have some measure of suffering in the world? you guys seem to confuse the concept of Heaven and a fallen world far too often. Suffering is the consenquence of sin. as Slaves to sin our lot is to suffer as a result of it. Suffering yeilds temperance and wisdom in the faithful man's heart. Wisdom and temperance is the key to an eternal life filled with the things you look to capture and enjoy in this one.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: now take the step to a planetary scale. What if the parent left this task to a few billion children and say 1/3 of them did what was asked 1/3 of them starved and a 1/3 stood by and blamed the parent for not supplying everyone with an over abundance?

The scale would only matter if it matters to the parent. Certainly what you're decribing is beyond the scope of a mortal parent's ability to handle.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: We were specifically designed for this task and complete in every way, until we allowed sin into our lives. Just because we have destroyed our ablity to do what is asked does not mean the task changes to suit our short commings. When is this ever true in life?

When is it NOT true in life? If a person can't handle a job we don't knowingly leave it in their hands, we find someone else who can do it or do it ourselves.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: Then if the standard of living was lowered then it would be poverity would it? It would be the standard of living.

There's a difference between relative and absolute poverty. If you're scratching out a living from barely fertile ground with hand tools, your standard of living is impoverished no matter how many people are in the same boat as you.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: We are only responsiable in so far as what we have been entrusted with. we have been blessed with a surplus for nearly 100 years and yet a large portion of this planet goes hungery. this may not have been a burden for our great grandfathers to bear, but it does belong to us.

Agree, essentially. However, don't be too hard on us. We've managed to bring the percentage of people in absolute poverty from 40% to 14% in the last 20 or so years through the miracle of economic growth. That's seven hundred million raised out of the worst poverty in India and China. Now the fastest economic growth in the world is happening in some African nations. That's not a reason to slack off now though, of course, it's a reason to press on and finish the job.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: why do you believe their to be any fault?

You're the one placing blame on the 'adult children', I'm just pointing out that if there is blame and the analogous parent is aware of the situation and able to correct it, the parent would bear a share of any fault going around.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: This life is meant to be a proving grounds and a place where we are to learn what it is to suffer as a result of sin. Seems to me the fault lies in those who seek to spend this life hiding from the 'suffering' we have been tasked to endure and alieviate.

Why do you believe there to be any fault?

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: what if the goal is to always have some measure of suffering in the world?

Seems like a profoundly immoral goal.

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: you guys seem to confuse the concept of Heaven and a fallen world far too often. Suffering is the consenquence of sin.

The sin where the Father leaves two children in a garden with a talking snake who tricks them into eating a fruit the Father said they couldn't have, said fruit containing the knowledge of good and evil so the children couldn't know they were committing a sin until after they ate it; and the Father acts surprised and angry that the children succumbed to the snake's wiles even though he made those children exactly as morally strong and resistant to temptation as they were?

(July 11, 2012 at 3:10 pm)Drich Wrote: as Slaves to sin our lot is to suffer as a result of it. Suffering yeilds temperance and wisdom in the faithful man's heart. Wisdom and temperance is the key to an eternal life filled with the things you look to capture and enjoy in this one.

God isn't able to provide us with temperance and wisdom without suffering?

(July 11, 2012 at 3:54 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: When is it NOT true in life? If a person can't handle a job we don't knowingly leave it in their hands, we find someone else who can do it or do it ourselves.

And you do not see this happening with those going into these poor nations and providing relief?

Quote:There's a difference between relative and absolute poverty. If you're scratching out a living from barely fertile ground with hand tools, your standard of living is impoverished no matter how many people are in the same boat as you.

If you know this to be true, then why bring up the stat as a point of contrast in your last post?

Quote:Agree, essentially. However, don't be too hard on us. We've managed to bring the percentage of people in absolute poverty from 40% to 14% in the last 20 or so years through the miracle of economic growth. That's seven hundred million raised out of the worst poverty in India and China. Now the fastest economic growth in the world is happening in some African nations. That's not a reason to slack off now though, of course, it's a reason to press on and finish the job.

agree

Quote:You're the one placing blame on the 'adult children',

Not blame. I am pointing out the lack of in activity in those who have been called to task.

Quote:Why do you believe there to be any fault?

Because in this situation 'Fault' is assigned to a God who has not provided an over abunance to all the people of the world, To the end that it is His 'fault' for calling those who do not want to work to feed the starving.

Quote:Seems like a profoundly immoral goal.

according to who's standard?

Quote:The sin where the Father leaves two children in a garden with a talking snake who tricks them into eating a fruit the Father said they couldn't have, said fruit containing the knowledge of good and evil so the children couldn't know they were committing a sin until after they ate it; and the Father acts surprised and angry that the children succumbed to the snake's wiles even though he made those children exactly as morally strong and resistant to temptation as they were?

The ones that are, and have been repeated by every single person on the planet from the time they were accountable for their actions till the day they die, That would be it!

Quote:God isn't able to provide us with temperance and wisdom without suffering?

The question should be; What would we do with wisdom and temperance without the humility suffering/working to alleviate suffering fosters??

(July 7, 2012 at 2:24 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 7, 2012 at 12:50 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I was at youth group last night. There wasn't much preaching but instead a whole lot of worship and people getting prayed for at the front if they needed it. After half an hour of me pondering the usual questions about this faith, I sat down and just looked around me. Here we were, praying for healings, people crying, people pacing and declaring the word of God and others shaking violently as they worshipped. God seemed to be alive.

10 million children die before the age of 5 in Africa. God created, didn't provide and punished them for eternity for not believing in him.

An all loving God yeah?

You should know better than that, I believed you knew scriptures better than that, I'm actually disappointed. If you are going down this road about God then why do you not tell those you pretend to worship with the truth. You do not because the truth is not in you, unbelievers do not and can not live as Christians of the light of truth do. Keep on waiting and these people you consider friends (why I do not know, you think they are stupid for what they believe don't you) will turn away from you in a heart beat, they we see you as a betrayer of their love for you. Mark my words it will happen. I say this to you for your friends sake, not yours.
All those children who starve to death in Africa will be in heaven, God has made provision for them. Again shame on you.

I have grown to hate you with such an enduring passion not even your hollyness can comprehend it. You can't even claim the innocence of those african children without claming the innocence of african adults and thereby every single person on earth. You need to shut up because you obviously don't even know your own relegion which many pastors would even state you must accept jesus christ as your lord and savior to get into heaven. God created all human beings according to your religion so he desinged us to be evil you dumb shit. He want's us to rape, murder and pillage. He want's to see us suffer and die miserably. And christians being the only representation of their god make me sick to my stomach. I hope your happy wearing clothe's made by slave children, I hope your happy stuffing your fat mouth with extra food on holidays while people starve in the streets. Because in truth, all you are is talk, you talk about the love your lord has but never shows. Even if you wish to say god gave us free will that makes you a dipshit because god is all knowing past present and future so there is no free will. I don't need to explain why you are a piece of crap who only talks because your bible explains it fairly well. I bet you don't even donate more than a nickel to charities. Well it's a good thing im not like you, I for one am helping homeless people and families I pay for their food with my $$. I am petitioning to make throwing good food away illegal for grocery stores and restraunts. I see my actions, I never see christians. The only petitions I see from them is hatred for the gays and the control over a womens body. So fuck you, fuck your god, fuck everything you stand for. You better hope you get into heaven if you are right, because you don't want to see me in hell.

I don't care if you are just some dumb kid or an old adult. Ive been subjected to every kind of evil there is as a child and teenager. I will show you the same blatent contempt the world shown me. So while you sit there immobile and in aww of the presence of your god and physically unable to do jack shit. I will be helping people.

(July 11, 2012 at 4:47 pm)JohnDG Wrote:

(July 7, 2012 at 2:24 am)Godschild Wrote:

---

You should know better than that, I believed you knew scriptures better than that, I'm actually disappointed. If you are going down this road about God then why do you not tell those you pretend to worship with the truth. You do not because the truth is not in you, unbelievers do not and can not live as Christians of the light of truth do. Keep on waiting and these people you consider friends (why I do not know, you think they are stupid for what they believe don't you) will turn away from you in a heart beat, they we see you as a betrayer of their love for you. Mark my words it will happen. I say this to you for your friends sake, not yours.
All those children who starve to death in Africa will be in heaven, God has made provision for them. Again shame on you.

---

I have grown to hate you with such an enduring passion not even your hollyness can comprehend it. You can't even claim the innocence of those african children without claming the innocence of african adults and thereby every single person on earth. You need to shut up because you obviously don't even know your own relegion which many pastors would even state you must accept jesus christ as your lord and savior to get into heaven. God created all human beings according to your religion so he desinged us to be evil you dumb shit. He want's us to rape, murder and pillage. He want's to see us suffer and die miserably. And christians being the only representation of their god make me sick to my stomach. I hope your happy wearing clothe's made by slave children, I hope your happy stuffing your fat mouth with extra food on holidays while people starve in the streets. Because in truth, all you are is talk, you talk about the love your lord has but never shows. Even if you wish to say god gave us free will that makes you a dipshit because god is all knowing past present and future so there is no free will. I don't need to explain why you are a piece of crap who only talks because your bible explains it fairly well. I bet you don't even donate more than a nickel to charities. Well it's a good thing im not like you, I for one am helping homeless people and families I pay for their food with my $$. I am petitioning to make throwing good food away illegal for grocery stores and restraunts. I see my actions, I never see christians. The only petitions I see from them is hatred for the gays and the control over a womens body. So fuck you, fuck your god, fuck everything you stand for. You better hope you get into heaven if you are right, because you don't want to see me in hell.

I don't care if you are just some dumb kid or an old adult. Ive been subjected to every kind of evil there is as a child and teenager. I will show you the same blatent contempt the world shown me. So while you sit there immobile and in aww of the presence of your god and physically unable to do jack shit. I will be helping people.

You sir are an insult to the human race, bragging on what you do for others. You sir have no idea of my work with others, it's none of your business and never will be, I am taught by Christ not to brag on the work I do for others, to brag makes one look like a idiot, you idiot. You could not care less for those children in Africa, thank God He does, and He will receive them unto Himself in heaven, each one will be welcomed with great cheering and celebration by the heavenly host, they each will receive a mansion to live in. For you, sense you mentioned it will receive nothing but the punishment of hell for your hatred and bragging about yourself, you care more for what you do than for the ones who need the help, it's all about you, a selfish, self centered little jerk.

---

(July 11, 2012 at 2:56 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(July 9, 2012 at 4:29 pm)Godschild Wrote: I doubt that the Christian friend said "tortured," if he/she did then he/she does not know scripture, I think you added that bit of tripe to embellish your statement.

Ever hear of the Law of Charity? Part of it is to not call someone a liar without a better reason than 'I don't think a Christian would say that'.

I know of no Christian who believes God tortures people, thus making him deceitful, and if they did they were in the wrong, I'm simply stating what I see. By the way when people on this forum call me a liar I do not see you admonishing them for their choice of words.

(July 11, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 9:28 am)Thor Wrote: So when this deity is drowning babies, turning people into pillars of salt, killing firstborn sons or telling us that we can keep slaves, this is all "Good"?

Quote:

Absolutly, 100% Yes.

Like I said, it's fun to make believers defend the most absurd aspects of their religion.

Quote:Again the 'deeds' them selves hold no intrensic value.

So drowning babies is "good" as long as your deity wills it? WOW! Makes me think of something I read somewhere:

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

Kind of appropriate, I'd say...

Quote:It is the will of God the makes a deed 'good or bad.'

If your deity drowns babies and kills innocent people, it is not worthy of worship.

Quote:By this standard, if this deity told you to kill your children, wouldn't refusing to do so be "wrong"?

Quote:The story of aberham confrims that it would be wrong to refuse God in this circumstance. So Yes.

This is scary because there have been people who have killed (or attempted to kill) their children and they claimed they were instructed to do so by God. Glad I'm not your kid. If you had some sort of hallucination you would obviously be ready to pick up a knife and plunge it in my chest.

Quote:And how the hell are we supposed to know what is in the "expressed will" of this deity?

Quote:"Expressed" as in written.. Or Recorded in the Bible.

And we all know that everyone agrees on interpreting things written in the Babble....

Quote:Is stem cell research right or wrong?

Quote:Where do you get the stem cells? It is a sin to kill children for them.

We don't get stem cells by killing children.

Quote:What about using birth control?

Quote:Birth Control was used then, and there is no command against it. (Speak where the bible Speaks and remain silent where the bible is silent.)

The Cathoholic Church does not agree with you.

Quote: Premarital sex?

Quote:Sex outside of the bounds of a santified marriage is always a sin.

Where does the Babble say this?

Quote:Gambling?

Quote:The act itself is not a sin, but the love of money is.

Where does the Babble say this?

Quote:If some say yes and some say no, and both are right,

This does not square with what you said here:

Quote:Because the Expressed will of God is very clear.

If the expressed will of this deity is "very clear", how can people have two different interpretations of it?

Quote: doesn't that point to a freedom beyond the confines of a soceitial based 'morality?'

No. It points to how utterly ridiculous your Babble is.

(July 11, 2012 at 5:23 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 4:47 pm)JohnDG Wrote: I have grown to hate you with such an enduring passion not even your hollyness can comprehend it. You can't even claim the innocence of those african children without claming the innocence of african adults and thereby every single person on earth. You need to shut up because you obviously don't even know your own relegion which many pastors would even state you must accept jesus christ as your lord and savior to get into heaven. God created all human beings according to your religion so he desinged us to be evil you dumb shit. He want's us to rape, murder and pillage. He want's to see us suffer and die miserably. And christians being the only representation of their god make me sick to my stomach. I hope your happy wearing clothe's made by slave children, I hope your happy stuffing your fat mouth with extra food on holidays while people starve in the streets. Because in truth, all you are is talk, you talk about the love your lord has but never shows. Even if you wish to say god gave us free will that makes you a dipshit because god is all knowing past present and future so there is no free will. I don't need to explain why you are a piece of crap who only talks because your bible explains it fairly well. I bet you don't even donate more than a nickel to charities. Well it's a good thing im not like you, I for one am helping homeless people and families I pay for their food with my $$. I am petitioning to make throwing good food away illegal for grocery stores and restraunts. I see my actions, I never see christians. The only petitions I see from them is hatred for the gays and the control over a womens body. So fuck you, fuck your god, fuck everything you stand for. You better hope you get into heaven if you are right, because you don't want to see me in hell.

I don't care if you are just some dumb kid or an old adult. Ive been subjected to every kind of evil there is as a child and teenager. I will show you the same blatent contempt the world shown me. So while you sit there immobile and in aww of the presence of your god and physically unable to do jack shit. I will be helping people.

You sir are an insult to the human race, bragging on what you do for others. You sir have no idea of my work with others, it's none of your business and never will be, I am taught by Christ not to brag on the work I do for others, to brag makes one look like a idiot, you idiot. You could not care less for those children in Africa, thank God He does, and He will receive them unto Himself in heaven, each one will be welcomed with great cheering and celebration by the heavenly host, they each will receive a mansion to live in. For you, sense you mentioned it will receive nothing but the punishment of hell for your hatred and bragging about yourself, you care more for what you do than for the ones who need the help, it's all about you, a selfish, self centered little jerk.

I've taken about as much as I can take of this crap. Stop making excuses for your stupid God. You people have an excuse for everything, and as John said, it is disgusting. I won't talk about the good that I do, but anything I do is of my own volition. You need somebody to tell you what is right and wrong, and, if they were to tell you that murder is right you would have your shotgun loaded before the sentence was even finished. You wonder why atheists are rising up against religion, well, you and your ilk are the reason why. You accuse us of having no morals or ethics, then defend the acts of an evil bastard. Then when you are challenged about it you come up with some shit about us not knowing what right and wrong is. I guess we need to take another bite of that apple.