I'm not speaking for anyone except myself. That others commented on your awful guns/cancer analogy doesn't mean I can't comment on it, too.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: We were given 'freewill' and we misused it. We took that tool and turned it on God to be outside of His expressed will, rather to be in it and under His protection. Protection (among other things) from things like cancer in our children.

According to your mythology (which I am positive you will tell me I have misinterpreted entirely) the punishment for A&E who were mentally equivalent to a child and more gullible than one was being broken off from God, with all their ancestors punished for their crime. All this despite God having the foresight and the capacity to change how the events would play out before he even set said events into motion.
Now, when you say "expressed will" do you mean to tell me that our gullible ancestors who we don't even know existed were firmly responsible for their decisions? If anyone is to blame in that scenario your God has sole responsibility. Direct responsibility, because he was there. Then he gets pissed that we aren't following his rules and kills everyone before he issues commandments? His lack of information is criminal, but his vindictiveness for rules nobody could have known or reasonably followed is simply disgusting.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: So i ask again if the cure for cancer (even timmy's) came at the cost of 'free will' would you gladly give up your free will? will you give back your gun?

Are you implying that Timmy's brother is to blame because a magic snake convinced a gullible woman to eat a piece of fruit?
Is it a formal or informal fallacy to blame one's offspring for a crime committed by the predecessor?
Free will has no link at all to whether or not disease ought to exist in a world with a kind and loving God at the helm, running the show from above.

(August 5, 2012 at 10:31 pm)Ryantology Wrote: I'm not speaking for anyone except myself. That others commented on your awful guns/cancer analogy doesn't mean I can't comment on it, too.

That is not what i said. I said if your going to comment on someone elses conversation please take the time and read what he said as to not double post. If you are going to comment, contribute something new. that is unless you simply need a deeper explaination. even then there is no need to double post. Just ask for a deep explaination.

Asking you for deep explanations tends to be directly akin to asking my bed for sleep.

(August 5, 2012 at 11:01 pm)Skepsis Wrote: According to your mythology (which I am positive you will tell me I have misinterpreted entirely) the punishment for A&E who were mentally equivalent to a child and more gullible than one was being broken off from God, with all their ancestors punished for their crime.

Adam and Eve could potentially be trillions of Years old. (as stated in my 'evolution' thread) fore their isn't a time line mentioned between the end of creation and the fall.

Quote:All this despite God having the foresight and the capacity to change how the events would play out before he even set said events into motion.

They were given life so they may choose. why would God change anything if they did what was expected of them?

Quote:Now, when you say "expressed will" do you mean to tell me that our gullible ancestors who we don't even know existed were firmly responsible for their decisions?

I am not sure who you are talking about or how it is you know their mental capablity, but Expressed will either means the verbal or written will or law of God. For Adam and Eve it was as simple as the direct word of God "Do not eat from the tree of knoweledge." for Moses it was the 10 commandments, and so on.

Quote:If anyone is to blame in that scenario your God has sole responsibility. Direct responsibility, because he was there. Then he gets pissed that we aren't following his rules and kills everyone before he issues commandments? His lack of information is criminal, but his vindictiveness for rules nobody could have known or reasonably followed is simply disgusting.

what are you talking about? Before God issued the commandments He either talked to people directly or through a Phophet.

Quote:Are you implying that Timmy's brother is to blame because a magic snake convinced a gullible woman to eat a piece of fruit?
Is it a formal or informal fallacy to blame one's offspring for a crime committed by the predecessor?

Every single human being on the planet makes the same desision Adam and Eve made when they ate of the tree of knoweledge, every time they sin. everyone is guilty. this isn't about orginal sin, it is about your sin. timmy's sin. my sin.

Quote:Free will has no link at all to whether or not disease ought to exist in a world with a kind and loving God at the helm, running the show from above.

That is just it God turned the Helm over to us. This is "His Will" that we be allowed to live apart from the known glory of God. In doing so we also live apart from God. This means we live apart from the protection of God and are the primary care takers of this world, not God. If you don't like how it is being run then do not blame God, blame those He left in charge of it.

I've been trying to write a dissection of your last post, Dritch. However, as a result of your statement of A&E potentially being trillions of years old, my fingers just type out the words "cuckoo cuckoo" over and over again. I fear one of us is a lost cause.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:43 am)Stimbo Wrote: I've been trying to write a dissection of your last post, Dritch. However, as a result of your statement of A&E potentially being trillions of years old, my fingers just type out the words "cuckoo cuckoo" over and over again. I fear one of us is a lost cause.

I like the way you leave this open. Nicely self-depreciating. I'll bet he appreciates that too.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:34 am)Drich Wrote: Adam and Eve could potentially be trillions of Years old. (as stated in my 'evolution' thread) fore their isn't a time line mentioned between the end of creation and the fall.

Their only company being each other and God. How much trickery and manipulation do you think they had to go through? They oughtn't be expected to know when they are being fooled.
And, why is the punishment so heavy for eating an apple?

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: They were given life so they may choose. why would God change anything if they did what was expected of them?

They were given life with the foreknowledge of how they would act. Was creating a world where Satan didn't interfere too difficult for God?

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: I am not sure who you are talking about or how it is you know their mental capablity, but Expressed will either means the verbal or written will or law of God. For Adam and Eve it was as simple as the direct word of God "Do not eat from the tree of knoweledge." for Moses it was the 10 commandments, and so on.

A&E were blamed for acting on their free will... after Satan, the ultimate inveigler, convinced the female to eat. Why they were blamed for this is beyond me, because Satan shouldn't have been in the garden and they never had any interaction with those that might try to fool them. What kind of God makes the perfect paradise and then allows the ultimate in evil to waltz in and make a mess of it?

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: what are you talking about? Before God issued the commandments He either talked to people directly or through a Phophet.

Evidence? Before Christianity was founded he was saying this? Either his creation is so stupid that we can't grasp it after so many attempts, or God is awful at conveying his message.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Every single human being on the planet makes the same desision Adam and Eve made when they ate of the tree of knoweledge, every time they sin. everyone is guilty. this isn't about orginal sin, it is about your sin. timmy's sin. my sin.

Sin is simply unjust. Those that have never heard of God can't be expected to avoid sin completely. Sin is unavoidable- God made the system so that we would fail. When sin entails natural tendencies and necessities you know something is up.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: That is just it God turned the Helm over to us. This is "His Will" that we be allowed to live apart from the known glory of God. In doing so we also live apart from God. This means we live apart from the protection of God and are the primary care takers of this world, not God. If you don't like how it is being run then do not blame God, blame those He left in charge of it.

If I don't like how...
What?
So, prayer has no effect, by your own words? If we run the world and God has no blame, then God has no part in the world. If God has no distinguishable part in the world, he is useless.
If your God is blameless then he has no part in the care taking of the world.

Well we've landed on Mars and no god has come forward to say "Hi guys! Well Done!"

Drich Wrote:Why do you believe suffering is something that God is always obligated to alleviate?

I don't think he is obligated to alleviate all suffering, because some suffering we bring upon ourselves. When the suffering we bring upon ourselves, however, causes innocent people, i.e. children, to suffer, then he should feel obligated. If my neighbor is a raging alcoholic, I may choose to try to help that person, but I am not obligated to do so. If that neighbor has a child that is being adversely affected by that neighbor's alcoholism, and I am aware of it, then I have a duty to that child to do what I can to alleviate its suffering.

Drich Wrote:It's not a 'gottcha question.' Either you want to be under the authority and control of God or you do not. This is not a what if question. This is the foundational element of the 'free will' we have been given, so we all may personally answer this question for ourselves. If you do as you say, the surrender/humble yourself to God, accept the attonement offered by Christ, and pray for his Kingdom to come/Pray for the second comming of Christ.

You seem to be forgetting that all of my answers are hypothetical. After all, I am an atheist.

While I am agnostic towards the existence of a deity in general, I fully reject the existence of the Christian god. I cannot humble myself before something that I do not believe exists.

---

Scratch that. I do believe god is obligated to alleviate all suffering. Suffering comes from our ability to sin, which he allowed A&E to bring upon the world even though at the time they had no way of being able to comprehend the consequences of their actions. I can tell a child not to touch the hot stove, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to just turn around and not pay attention to whether they touch it or not. I am still obligated to watch them, because they are not able to fully comprehend the consequences of not listening to me. To be responsible for something, such as bringing sin into the world, we must be aware of the consequences. Therefore, we are not responsible for bringing about evil into this world that did not exist until god sat idly by and watched us do so.