What is the "law and order gong"?

Quote:Even atheists struggle with the fact that free will is an illusion

This atheist has no such struggle. Not a subject I dwell on due to the futility involved.

As far as I'm aware, the free will/determinism debate is far from resolved due to a lack of credible evidence one way or t'other. Consequently, I am unable to support any truth claims.

I lean towards genetic, psychological, and situational determinism. I think it's likely that free will is mostly,if not entirely, an illusion,but I cannot prove that..

However, the issue is academic;I FEEL as if have free will and FEEL as if I act accordingly. I also live in a society in which I am held accountable for my actions. Whether I
'really' have free will is irrelevant to me except as an intellectual exercise..

(August 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm)whateverist Wrote: What is the "law and order gong"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlCVNn9ZeY

People who believe in free will should present evidence to support their claims. :-)

(August 28, 2012 at 4:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: People who believe in free will should present evidence to support their claims. :-)

As should people who assert "free will is an illusion"

Me? I kinda do,emotionally,but intellectually, the whole issue confuses me.

(August 28, 2012 at 4:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: People who believe in free will should present evidence to support their claims. :-)

But only if they choose to do so.

Free will is rather meaningless when you take into account that all we are is the sum of our rather limited parts.

(August 27, 2012 at 12:37 am)padraic Wrote: As far as I'm aware, the free will/determinism debate is far from resolved due to a lack of credible evidence one way or t'other. Consequently, I am unable to support any truth claims.

There's quite a bit of credible evidence for determinism, you know, in that everywhere we look we find it. I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept myself, but if we're willing to propose that "even though determinism appears to rear it's ugly head every time we look into anything at all...there is no credible evidence for it" I'm afraid we aren't going to get very far one way or the other. Not because we couldn't, but because we refuse to. I can't shake the notion that we are exempting ourselves (free will) from the forces we see at work everywhere else simply because we are uncomfortable with the idea.

(to pre-empt the obligatory uncertainty this, quantum that - uncertainty has to do with knowing, quantum this and that's are still not free of determinism - determined probability.)

This discussion is completely pointless.

There's no way to inspect either worldview, since any choice can be written off by the determinist as "well, that choice was inevitable anyway given your genetics and background."

Since the determinist can play that card ad ininitum, what's the point?

---

(August 28, 2012 at 4:20 am)apophenia Wrote:

(August 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm)whateverist Wrote: What is the "law and order gong"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlCVNn9ZeY

"Welcome to another episode of Determinist Court. It was inevitable you'd be watching now."

"Your honor, while it is true my client pleads guilty to the murder, he wasn't responsible since choice is an illusion and his actions were the inevitable consequence of his environmental background and genetic background."

"I understand but unfortunately this court, being the sum of beings that also lack free will are unable to come to any conclusion aside from his guilt and even though free will is an illusion, we are compelled by our backgrounds to punish him as if it was real."

*Gavel pounds*

"This has been another episode of Determinist Court where the verdict, whatever it may be, is always inevitable."

(August 28, 2012 at 9:28 am)Rhythm Wrote: There's quite a bit of credible evidence for determinism, you know, in that everywhere we look we find it. I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept myself, but if we're willing to propose that "even though determinism appears to rear it's ugly head every time we look into anything at all...there is no credible evidence for it" I'm afraid we aren't going to get very far one way or the other. Not because we couldn't, but because we refuse to.

Some people say, though we may lack free will, we nonetheless have "free won't".

It is hard to imagine what the successful resolution of this debate could possibly be for a determined determinist. Here are a couple ways I can imagine a determinist responding after victory is achieved:

"Told you suckers! You were compelled to see it your way while I was compelled to go the other way."

"Now that you realize the truth of determinism I expect you all to freely give up acting as though you are free to choose what to do."