(September 20, 2012 at 11:00 am)Drich Wrote:

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(September 20, 2012 at 10:30 am)LastPoet Wrote: if god truly wanted for us to be 'good' for ourselves,

God knows we can't be good for ourselves, that is why He sent His Son to die for us..

Quote: then why interfere by sending warning?

Appearently His Righteousness Demanded it.

Quote: Why interfere wit our free will?

It doesn't as you clearly demonstrate. In that you can ignore said "warning."

Quote:Why even try?

For the people who would seek Him out if given the oppertunity.

Quote: All you know about your god is at face value.

All i know about God is what I can comperhend from what He has revealed. Which is very little, but appearently it is more than you know

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This reminds me why I try to avoid idiots, it seems my efforts are not perfect.

(September 19, 2012 at 11:31 pm)Drich Wrote: If you want to know God then you will humble yourself and approach Him as He has commanded. It is only then that you will be given what you need to have your 'proof.'

Can I translate this to "atheistic language"?

If you want to know god, then you must first believe he exists, then follow his teachings which are inscribed in a book [written by people who already believe he exists and claim to have been inspired by him when writing said book. - this is not part of the translation, just some translator notes]
Once you believe and accept what others have written about him, then you can get your proof of his existence by misinterpreting some coincidence of events that happen in your life.

(September 20, 2012 at 11:22 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 19, 2012 at 11:31 pm)Drich Wrote: If you want to know God then you will humble yourself and approach Him as He has commanded. It is only then that you will be given what you need to have your 'proof.'

Can I translate this to "atheistic language"?

If you want to know god, then you must first believe he exists, then follow his teachings which are inscribed in a book [written by people who already believe he exists and claim to have been inspired by him when writing said book. - this is not part of the translation, just some translator notes]
Once you believe and accept what others have written about him, then you can get your proof of his existence by misinterpreting some coincidence of events that happen in your life.

no. If you want to know God all one must have is a mustard seed of faith to simply ask seek and knock for Him. you don't have to read or know anything else. All one must do is submit, and He will lift you up and fill in the blanks Himself.

A mustard seed's worth of faith or rather your willingness to use it is all that stands between anyone and an eternity with God.

(September 20, 2012 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 11:22 am)pocaracas Wrote: Can I translate this to "atheistic language"?

If you want to know god, then you must first believe he exists, then follow his teachings which are inscribed in a book [written by people who already believe he exists and claim to have been inspired by him when writing said book. - this is not part of the translation, just some translator notes]
Once you believe and accept what others have written about him, then you can get your proof of his existence by misinterpreting some coincidence of events that happen in your life.

no. If you want to know God all one must have is a mustard seed of faith to simply ask seek and knock for Him. you don't have to read or know anything else. All one must do is submit, and He will lift you up and fill in the blanks Himself.

A mustard seed's worth of faith or rather your willingness to use it is all that stands between anyone and an eternity with God.

Drich, when you "humbled" yourself, what exactly did God provide to you as "proof"? Tell us.

(September 20, 2012 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 11:22 am)pocaracas Wrote: Can I translate this to "atheistic language"?

If you want to know god, then you must first believe he exists, then follow his teachings which are inscribed in a book [written by people who already believe he exists and claim to have been inspired by him when writing said book. - this is not part of the translation, just some translator notes]
Once you believe and accept what others have written about him, then you can get your proof of his existence by misinterpreting some coincidence of events that happen in your life.

no. If you want to know God all one must have is a mustard seed of faith to simply ask seek and knock for Him. you don't have to read or know anything else. All one must do is submit, and He will lift you up and fill in the blanks Himself.

A mustard seed's worth of faith or rather your willingness to use it is all that stands between anyone and an eternity with God.

I had that mustard seed for about 10 years of my life. Nothing ever happened, but my knowledge of the world grew and the divergence between the biblical stories and my knowledge of (pre-)history also grew.
I guess you can tell which I found to be more accurate and in conformity with my knowledge of the reality around me.

I regularly handle millions of mustard seeds, I've never encountered any "faith" in a single one of them. I've also never seen a mustard seed move anything, let alone a mountain. No mustard seed has ever stood between me and the next 5 minutes, let alone an eternity, regardless of who it might be spent with.

Worthless platitudes. "The faith of a mustard seed" means jack shit.

@ Tea, Drich humbled himself? Doesn't look like it from here, fucking christian modesty..

(September 20, 2012 at 11:37 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote: no. If you want to know God all one must have is a mustard seed of faith to simply ask seek and knock for Him. you don't have to read or know anything else. All one must do is submit, and He will lift you up and fill in the blanks Himself.

A mustard seed's worth of faith or rather your willingness to use it is all that stands between anyone and an eternity with God.

Drich, when you "humbled" yourself, what exactly did God provide to you as "proof"? Tell us.

There were several events 'proofs' Of which I have spoken of openly here. I talked about the first one in "thread #1" I tested positive for HIV with a viral infection usally only seen with someone who has AIDS, Two weeks later the infection and the second HIV test came back clean. (and every subsequent test.) My thread on 'Messengers/message" http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html highlights another big event.
Being given insight and understanding beyond my education is another big confirmation. Not just in biblical matters but in my business/line of work. I am one of 3 lead engineers on a 'green project' that will change refrigerated food distribution forever. and I graduated highschool with a 4th grade education. outside of my sun shine diploma (Which is certificate of completion of 12 years of grade school.) i have little in the way of a formal/paid education (as so many of you are so fond of pointing out.) In short I should not be here or as sucessful as I am in what I do. God opens a door and i am just smart enough to walk through it.
All that i have All that i am is a testament to God, and the full fillment of a promise He made me.

But all of these 'big life changing things' pale in compareson to the real heart changing thing that I was shown/given. I was given direct access to God through the Holy Spirit. It started out with just a simple awareness to the sins keeping me from experienceing Him fully and over the next 20 or so years i worked on learning how to truly repent of those sins (not nessarily stop commiting them, but how and what repentance meant.) and now All I have to do is Ask God, and He will show me what has to be done to accopmlish a given task, and if I am faithful then what i ask will be given to me. I wish I could show all of you without having to take on the full responsiablity needed to show you.. Maybe that is the next thing I need to work on

I could tell you but most of you would trivialize and dismiss. One needs to see or experience What God has to offer before my words or His have any meaning. If you want a list of things anyway look up Spiritual Fruit or "Fruit of the Spirit" and "Gifts of the Spirit."

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(September 20, 2012 at 11:48 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote: no. If you want to know God all one must have is a mustard seed of faith to simply ask seek and knock for Him. you don't have to read or know anything else. All one must do is submit, and He will lift you up and fill in the blanks Himself.

A mustard seed's worth of faith or rather your willingness to use it is all that stands between anyone and an eternity with God.

I had that mustard seed for about 10 years of my life. Nothing ever happened, but my knowledge of the world grew and the divergence between the biblical stories and my knowledge of (pre-)history also grew.
I guess you can tell which I found to be more accurate and in conformity with my knowledge of the reality around me.

Mustard seeds can only grow if you plant them. Did you plant yours? if so How?

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(September 20, 2012 at 11:57 am)Rhythm Wrote: I regularly handle millions of mustard seeds, I've never encountered any "faith" in a single one of them.

In this metaphore the mustard seed is used to illustrate the amount of faith needed to produce a large and fairly quick result.

Quote: I've also never seen a mustard seed move anything, let alone a mountain. No mustard seed has ever stood between me and the next 5 minutes, let alone an eternity, regardless of who it might be spent with.

The mountain referred to in Christ's teaching repersents an impossiable obstical such as the burden of proof most of you claim to be the reason you can not believe in Christ. Christ is saying if one has a mustardseed's worth of faith then your mountain of doubt will be moved.

Oh, and eternity is a long time. Isn't it a bit foolish to speak for it with just a few decades of experience behind you?

Quote:@ Tea, Drich humbled himself? Doesn't look like it from here, fucking christian modesty.

Perhaps you simply do not understand the concept. My humility to God does not translate into me being a door mat for you or your peers. Granted I am compelled to turn the other cheek in some instances, but that does not mean i am to conduct myself to be humble to your expectation of the word ;P

(September 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 11:37 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Drich, when you "humbled" yourself, what exactly did God provide to you as "proof"? Tell us.

There were several events 'proofs' Of which I have spoken of openly here. I talked about the first one in "thread #1" I tested positive for HIV with a viral infection usally only seen with someone who has AIDS, Two weeks later the infection and the second HIV test came back clean. (and every subsequent test.) My thread on 'Messengers/message" http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html highlights another big event.

All you can say about that was that it was a statically anomaly. Things like that happen but it's not proof of a miracle. Why doesn't God ever heal amputees? These sort of spontaneous cures are not proof of the supernatural.

Set up your argument.

1. My HIV was healed.
2. ???
3. Therefore, God exist.

Quote:Being given insight and understanding beyond my education is another big confirmation. Not just in biblical matters but in my business/line of work. I am one of 3 lead engineers on a 'green project' that will change refrigerated food distribution forever. and I graduated highschool with a 4th grade education. outside of my sun shine diploma (Which is certificate of completion of 12 years of grade school.) i have little in the way of a formal/paid education (as so many of you are so fond of pointing out.) In short I should not be here or as sucessful as I am in what I do. God opens a door and i am just smart enough to walk through it.
All that i have All that i am is a testament to God, and the full fillment of a promise He made me.

Nothing unheard of.

1. I'm really smart despite my background.
2. ???
3. Therefore, God exists.

Quote:But all of these 'big life changing things' pale in compareson to the real heart changing thing that I was shown/given. I was given direct access to God through the Holy Spirit. It started out with just a simple awareness to the sins keeping me from experienceing Him fully and over the next 20 or so years i worked on learning how to truly repent of those sins (not nessarily stop commiting them, but how and what repentance meant.) and now All I have to do is Ask God, and He will show me what has to be done to accopmlish a given task, and if I am faithful then what i ask will be given to me. I wish I could show all of you without having to take on the full responsiablity needed to show you.. Maybe that is the next thing I need to work on

I could tell you but most of you would trivialize and dismiss. One needs to see or experience What God has to offer before my words or His have any meaning. If you want a list of things anyway look up Spiritual Fruit or "Fruit of the Spirit" and "Gifts of the Spirit."

1. I changed my habits in accordance to the commands of a book I like.
2. ???
3. Therefore God exists.

All of this can be explained as your own will power to submit to an imaginary authority figure. God's supposed guidance over your life can just be chocked up to being common delusions. People of all religions can describe similar experiences. Some people think the "universe" talks to them. Some trust their horoscopes. Some trust the guidance of their dead ancestors. And they're all just as convinced as you are and can attest to similar "proof" of their supernatural guidance.

All you are Drich is a statistical anomaly. Everybody has unusual experiences and stories that would separate them apart from most of the 6.5 billion people in the world. "You're unique, just like everyone else." And instead of just recognizing this, you took the lazy route and attributed it to divine providence.

(September 20, 2012 at 1:26 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm)Drich Wrote: There were several events 'proofs' Of which I have spoken of openly here. I talked about the first one in "thread #1" I tested positive for HIV with a viral infection usally only seen with someone who has AIDS, Two weeks later the infection and the second HIV test came back clean. (and every subsequent test.) My thread on 'Messengers/message" http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html highlights another big event.

All you can say about that was that it was a statically anomaly. Things like that happen but it's not proof of a miracle. Why doesn't God ever heal amputees? These sort of spontaneous cures are not proof of the supernatural.

Set up your argument.

1. My HIV was healed.
2. ???
3. Therefore, God exist.

Quote:Being given insight and understanding beyond my education is another big confirmation. Not just in biblical matters but in my business/line of work. I am one of 3 lead engineers on a 'green project' that will change refrigerated food distribution forever. and I graduated highschool with a 4th grade education. outside of my sun shine diploma (Which is certificate of completion of 12 years of grade school.) i have little in the way of a formal/paid education (as so many of you are so fond of pointing out.) In short I should not be here or as sucessful as I am in what I do. God opens a door and i am just smart enough to walk through it.
All that i have All that i am is a testament to God, and the full fillment of a promise He made me.

Nothing unheard of.

1. I'm really smart despite my background.
2. ???
3. Therefore, God exists.

Quote:But all of these 'big life changing things' pale in compareson to the real heart changing thing that I was shown/given. I was given direct access to God through the Holy Spirit. It started out with just a simple awareness to the sins keeping me from experienceing Him fully and over the next 20 or so years i worked on learning how to truly repent of those sins (not nessarily stop commiting them, but how and what repentance meant.) and now All I have to do is Ask God, and He will show me what has to be done to accopmlish a given task, and if I am faithful then what i ask will be given to me. I wish I could show all of you without having to take on the full responsiablity needed to show you.. Maybe that is the next thing I need to work on

I could tell you but most of you would trivialize and dismiss. One needs to see or experience What God has to offer before my words or His have any meaning. If you want a list of things anyway look up Spiritual Fruit or "Fruit of the Spirit" and "Gifts of the Spirit."

1. I changed my habits in accordance to the commands of a book I like.
2. ???
3. Therefore God exists.

All of this can be explained as your own will power to submit to an imaginary authority figure. God's supposed guidance over your life can just be chocked up to being common delusions. People of all religions can describe similar experiences. Some people think the "universe" talks to them. Some trust their horoscopes. Some trust the guidance of their dead ancestors. And they're all just as convinced as you are and can attest to similar "proof" of their supernatural guidance.

All you are Drich is a statistical anomaly. Everybody has unusual experiences and stories that would separate them apart from most of the 6.5 billion people in the world. "You're unique, just like everyone else." And instead of just recognizing this, you took the lazy route and attributed it to divine providence.

again, If there were undenyable proof then people like you would have no choice but to believe. If for no other reason then self preservation. I Never said these instances were universal proofs of God. These events (an many others) are the proofs that I needed in my own personal life to justify my faith in God. If I were one person out of the billions that have lived and are alive now, then I would dismiss my own accounts. But, as it is i am not. Billions more have similar experiences. Not anyone enough to force a non believer to believe, but enough to establish and maintain belief in one person's life.

No one has ever been saved according to what he believes God has done for someone else. Salvation is a result of a direct relationship God has with you through the blood Christ offered on your behalf.

If you want to know for yourself, then simply Ask, though prayer and petition. Seek in the bible, church and through your questions, and knock by repeating this process till you find what your heart is looking for. Let God Change your life and offer you a proof that will mean nothing to anyone else, but to you will be the like the key to faith you are looking for. All any of us needs is a mustard seed's worth of faith.

The Islam argument doesn't rely on personal experience but goes a long the lines of this:

1) Quran is unique and cannot be replicated.
2) All explanations except it being from God don't stand to reason.
3) Therefore God sent the Quran.

Muslims believe they are therefore relying on logic and not blind faith.

Another argument now because of science is.

1) Quran contains many scientific information only known today.
2) The only rational explanation to this, is that it comes from the Divine.
3) Therefore Quran comes from the divine.

I would say this is again an intellectual argument.

Some Muslims also claim to rely on intellectual arguments (teleological, cosmological, etc) rather then spiritual faith for existence of God.

Christians of course don't make any argument except that the holy spirit should guide you if you open up your heart (which is an assertion not an argument).

Another argument in Quran is this:

1) If it were from other then God, people would find in it much contradictions.
2) People haven't found contradictions.
3) Therefore it is from God.

A valid argument, but I would say both premise 1 and 2 is definitely wrong.