(October 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm)John V Wrote:

(October 23, 2012 at 2:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You think that the Romans allowed conquered peoples to write history? That's rich.

Ah, so it was Romans who wrote the gospels, and we've had Roman accounts all along!

Ah, so the gospels were accurate historical accounts all along!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Existence

wikipedia Wrote:The Christian gospels were written primarily as theological documents rather than historical chronicles.

Or not...

(October 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm)John V Wrote: Ah, so it was Romans who wrote the gospels, and we've had Roman accounts all along!

So we're back to nothing but the gospels are we? That is precisely the bit that should be troubling to you. The romans also had "accounts" of their borrowed gods. One begins to wonder why you aren't bowing at those altars. Are we ready to move on to something else already? What you asked for exists, what I'm asking for is reasonable.

(October 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Learn.


Tacitus. Germania

Er, OK. Tacitus. Annals, Book 15, Chapter 44.
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Hey, learning is fun! Case closed then?

Believe this is one of Mins favorites, so I'm gonna bow to the master on this one..so to speak (my interest in tacitus is decidedly more european..lol).

(October 23, 2012 at 3:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Believe this is one of Mins favorites, so I'm gonna bow to the master on this one..so to speak (my interest in tacitus is decidedly more european..lol).

I'll put on my hip boots.

[url] http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/Nero.htm [/url]

Quote: According to Tacitus, alone, Nero blamed the Christians for the fire in Rome. Annals, XV. This passage is not referred to in any other pagan, nor Christian writings until 400 CE.

The passage referred to c 400 AD is here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII11-5.TXT

Quote: CHAPTER XXIX.

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night.

Note that in Severus' version there is no reference to Pilate or Christ or Tiberius. Moreover, Severus does not even make a reference to Tacitus as his source which one would expect since Tacitus was known as a famous historian.

Even more oddly, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny were all contemporaries, living in the early second century. Both Suetonius and Pliny describe xtianity as mere "superstition." How odd that Tacitus writing at the same time would have had this far more advanced doctrine included in his work. Of course, when modern xtians seek facile answers to support their remaining superstitions they never question anything. I expect you will shove your head more firmly up your ass and insist that Tacitus wrote this passage exactly as you see it and that all the other Greco-Roman and xtian writers ignored it for reasons which I am sure you will invent.

That's what apologists do.

For normal people this shit looks more and more like a medieval forgery.

I guess abnormal people are contributing to the wiki page, which says:
Most modern scholars consider the passage to be authentic.[40][41] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] Although a few scholars question the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus' death, the majority of scholars consider it genuine.[40]

I thought it was common knowledge that Nero is believed to be responsible for the fire.

above wikipedia article Wrote:Tacitus then describes the torture of Christians. The exact cause of the fire remains uncertain, but much of the population of Rome suspected that Emperor Nero had started the fire himself. To divert attention from himself, Nero accused the Christians of starting the fire and persecuted them, making this the first confrontation between Christians and the authorities in Rome. Tacitus never accused Nero of playing the lyre while Rome burned - that statement came from Cassius Dio, who died in the 3rd century. But Tacitus did suggest that Nero used the Christians as scapegoats.

So...you're both right?

Quote:About Paul R. Eddy

Paul R. Eddy (Ph.D., Marquette University) is Professor of Theology at Bethel University in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Quote: Gregory A. "Greg" Boyd (born June 2, 1957) is an American theologian, pastor, and author. Boyd is Senior Pastor of the Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Gee. What a fucking surprise. Two theologians write "yes...yes...jesus is REAL... and you fall for it hook line and sinker.

Grow the fuck up, man.

What's so great about Tacitus' account? We know that the Christians believed those things. That's what Tacitus is doing; simply voicing the beliefs of the Christians at the time. He wasn't a contemporary to the events so that's all he can really do.