The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem—but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing. Jeremiah 33:18

Jeremiah 33:17 “For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’”

??? Maybe the Jews who quoted the scripture of this chart were a little rusty.. Or maybe the guy with no religious affiliation who compiled this chart doesn't know what he is talking about.



The Messiah will reestablish Jewish religious law as the law of the land.
Jeremiah 33:15
15 ‘In those days and at that time
I will cause to grow up to David
A Branch of righteousness;
He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Again, I not seeing it.. Maybe one of you can explain it.


The Messiah will save Israel." In the case of Jesus, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900 year long night of persecution, — largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled Messiah!" (6)
No book Chapter and verse for this one? If the "Messiah was to save Israel then wouldn't that be something one of the Phophets would have recorded? Or is this a case of people expecting "Y" when God offers "X"?



He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1).
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Has any of these things happened yet? Then I should say it is not the "latter days."

10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”

This seems accurate.

You just need to Read all of 42 it seem to me Isaiah is describing Christ:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

The Messiah will return all exiles to their homeland. Isaiah 11:11-12
Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3
Hosea 3:4-5
This did not happen in the late 1940's???

I can see only one reason to 'love this chart.' It tell you what you want to hear, but only if you do not actually look up the verses it quotes.

(October 23, 2012 at 2:48 am)Rayaan Wrote: I guess I should have said "agrees" or "matches" with the Muslims view of Jesus, not support it.

I can't tell you whether or not the Christians believed in unsubstantiated bullshit.

Oh sure you can Rayaan. I think it would probably be more accurate to say that you wont (I have my opinions on why that may be, I think you're a smart cookie, but meh -that is a tale for another time-).

Quote:I think it's possible that Jesus performed miracles and certain things that proved his prophethood. Maybe that's why people believed in him.

What gives you reason to propose that miracles themselves are possible (let alone that it's possible that someone performed them)? Are you hiding some miracles the rest of us need to take a look at Rayaan? In what way, to that end, would the ability to perform miracles (if they can be performed) prove someones "prophethood"? Why not just go with witches and wizards...if we're willing to go with this at all? I see no reason to tack prophethood or gods onto magic (if we're assuming magic)...you're still missing a step...and that would be step #1....

So.... let me get this straight, drippy.

A bunch of jews invent the conditions for their so-called messiah out of their own religion and, as you correctly note, "jesus" does not come close to matching them. In fact, he is a total fuck up.

Then a bunch of xtians come along and invent even stupider conditions for this so-called messiah but admit that fucking jesus needs a second bite at the apple because he failed the first time.

You look at all this and conclude that it is the jews who are wrong?

Pretty fucking arrogant, aren't you.

(October 23, 2012 at 8:43 am)Drich Wrote: The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem—but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing. Jeremiah 33:18

Jeremiah 33:17 “For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’”

??? Maybe the Jews who quoted the scripture of this chart were a little rusty.. Or maybe the guy with no religious affiliation who compiled this chart doesn't know what he is talking about.



The Messiah will reestablish Jewish religious law as the law of the land.
Jeremiah 33:15
15 ‘In those days and at that time
I will cause to grow up to David
A Branch of righteousness;
He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Again, I not seeing it.. Maybe one of you can explain it.


The Messiah will save Israel." In the case of Jesus, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900 year long night of persecution, — largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled Messiah!" (6)
No book Chapter and verse for this one? If the "Messiah was to save Israel then wouldn't that be something one of the Phophets would have recorded? Or is this a case of people expecting "Y" when God offers "X"?



He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1).
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Has any of these things happened yet? Then I should say it is not the "latter days."

10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”

This seems accurate.

You just need to Read all of 42 it seem to me Isaiah is describing Christ:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

The Messiah will return all exiles to their homeland. Isaiah 11:11-12
Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3
Hosea 3:4-5
This did not happen in the late 1940's???

I can see only one reason to 'love this chart.' It tell you what you want to hear, but only if you do not actually look up the verses it quotes.

Gotta say Drich, I have a limited interest in debating this. Plus I don't really understand what you're saying. There's pretty much no hope in discussing this. I was looking around Christian forums and there was a thread about messianic prophecies that was maybe about 100 pages. Christians talking about how prophecies prove Jesus was the messiah Jews and atheists saying how he didn't fulfill the prophecies. At the very end all the op had to say was, "In my heart I will always know Jesus is God and the messiah." Yup.

Or another time I was talking with some girl about Isaiah 53 and her argument was she had prayed to God and he gave her the answer. Suspiciously the answer was what she already thought it was before she prayed. Eventually we just stopped talking because she told me nothing I said would change her mind.

I think I could find build a time machine, learn to speak aramaic, and find Jesus and bring him back to the present time to tell you that whole messiah thing got way out of control and he isn't quite sure while people are worshiping him, and you still wouldn't believe me. I've been through this before and I've learned it's just a waste of time.

It can still be fun shitting on them, though.

(October 23, 2012 at 3:06 pm)Marnie Wrote: Gotta say Drich, I have a limited interest in debating this. Plus I don't really understand what you're saying. There's pretty much no hope in discussing this. I was looking around Christian forums and there was a thread about messianic prophecies that was maybe about 100 pages. Christians talking about how prophecies prove Jesus was the messiah Jews and atheists saying how he didn't fulfill the prophecies. At the very end all the op had to say was, "In my heart I will always know Jesus is God and the messiah." Yup.

Or another time I was talking with some girl about Isaiah 53 and her argument was she had prayed to God and he gave her the answer. Suspiciously the answer was what she already thought it was before she prayed. Eventually we just stopped talking because she told me nothing I said would change her mind.

I think I could find build a time machine, learn to speak aramaic, and find Jesus and bring him back to the present time to tell you that whole messiah thing got way out of control and he isn't quite sure while people are worshiping him, and you still wouldn't believe me. I've been through this before and I've learned it's just a waste of time.

It depends on the time machine. Phone booth time machine, No. Delorean Time machine yes..

That said understand the debate is not about phophecies, rather the lack of them in the 'chart' you were favoring. (The verses did not have anything to do with how they were being repersented.)

(October 23, 2012 at 3:31 pm)Drich Wrote: It depends on the time machine. Phone booth time machine, No. Delorean Time machine yes..

That said understand the debate is not about phophecies, rather the lack of them in the 'chart' you were favoring. (The verses did not have anything to do with how they were being repersented.)

The TARDIS kicks the DeLorean's ass. The TARDIS has a swimming pool!

There's some truth to the chart, but it's incomplete. Some would like to hide it, but the fact is Jewish scholars have recognized the references to a suffering messiah and struggled to reconcile those with the referneces to a triumphant messiah. One method of reconciliation was two messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph (suffering) followed by Messiah ben David (triumphant) - two messiahs, one advent each. Christians go with one messiah, two advents. If you made the chart with the suffering references, then put ben Joseph or Ben David in the Jewish column, and first advent or second advent in the Christian column, it would line up pretty well.

(October 23, 2012 at 4:53 pm)John V Wrote: There's some truth to the chart, but it's incomplete. Some would like to hide it, but the fact is Jewish scholars have recognized the references to a suffering messiah and struggled to reconcile those with the referneces to a triumphant messiah. One method of reconciliation was two messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph (suffering) followed by Messiah ben David (triumphant) - two messiahs, one advent each. Christians go with one messiah, two advents. If you made the chart with the suffering references, then put ben Joseph or Ben David in the Jewish column, and first advent or second advent in the Christian column, it would line up pretty well.

Pish Posh, I've got a new favorite chart now. I don't know who proofreads the school newspaper but they need to be fired.

Atheism:
Monotheistic religion with belief in one eternal God
Atheists believe in the Hebrew bible, one eternal god, and are awaiting a coming messiah
About 14 million people identify as atheists today

This was in my school newspaper in chart form. I wish I was kidding.

Please stop telling jews how to be jews, will you? It makes you seem like a more arrogant shit than ever.

It is their fucking religion and no matter how you try to twist it in knots to suit your own purpose it does not work.

http://jewishisaiah53.com/websiterabbinic53.pdf

Quote:Simply put, there are 15 verses in the Targum’s annotation on Isaiah 53 (52:13-15 and 53:1-12), yet with surgical precision, missionary conversionist tracts selectively and deliberately ignore almost all of them with the exception of the first verse on Isaiah 52:13. This is a well-worn technique of wielding rabbinic literature as an evangelical sledgehammer, in order to drive home the well-crafted
message to unlettered Jews that ancient rabbis concealed the truth that Isaiah 53 is speaking of Jesus, and not the nation of Israel. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth.