The World's Greatest Chart

[Drich]

[The Grand Nudger]

I guess I should have said "agrees" or "matches" with the Muslims view of Jesus, not support it.

I can't tell you whether or not the Christians believed in unsubstantiated bullshit.

Oh sure you can Rayaan. I think it would probably be more accurate to say that you wont (I have my opinions on why that may be, I think you're a smart cookie, but meh -that is a tale for another time-).

I think it's possible that Jesus performed miracles and certain things that proved his prophethood. Maybe that's why people believed in him.

What gives you reason to propose that miracles themselves are possible (let alone that it's possible that someone performed them)? Are you hiding some miracles the rest of us need to take a look at Rayaan? In what way, to that end, would the ability to perform miracles (if they can be performed) prove someones "prophethood"? Why not just go with witches and wizards...if we're willing to go with this at all? I see no reason to tack prophethood or gods onto magic (if we're assuming magic)...you're still missing a step...and that would be step #1....

[Minimalist]

So.... let me get this straight, drippy.

A bunch of jews invent the conditions for their so-called messiah out of their own religion and, as you correctly note, "jesus" does not come close to matching them. In fact, he is a total fuck up.

Then a bunch of xtians come along and invent even stupider conditions for this so-called messiah but admit that fucking jesus needs a second bite at the apple because he failed the first time.

You look at all this and conclude that it is the jews who are wrong?

Pretty fucking arrogant, aren't you.

[Marnie]

[Minimalist]

It can still be fun shitting on them, though.

[Drich]

Gotta say Drich, I have a limited interest in debating this. Plus I don't really understand what you're saying. There's pretty much no hope in discussing this. I was looking around Christian forums and there was a thread about messianic prophecies that was maybe about 100 pages. Christians talking about how prophecies prove Jesus was the messiah Jews and atheists saying how he didn't fulfill the prophecies. At the very end all the op had to say was, "In my heart I will always know Jesus is God and the messiah." Yup.

Or another time I was talking with some girl about Isaiah 53 and her argument was she had prayed to God and he gave her the answer. Suspiciously the answer was what she already thought it was before she prayed. Eventually we just stopped talking because she told me nothing I said would change her mind.

I think I could find build a time machine, learn to speak aramaic, and find Jesus and bring him back to the present time to tell you that whole messiah thing got way out of control and he isn't quite sure while people are worshiping him, and you still wouldn't believe me. I've been through this before and I've learned it's just a waste of time.

It depends on the time machine. Phone booth time machine, No. Delorean Time machine yes..

That said understand the debate is not about phophecies, rather the lack of them in the 'chart' you were favoring. (The verses did not have anything to do with how they were being repersented.)

[Cato]

It depends on the time machine. Phone booth time machine, No. Delorean Time machine yes..

That said understand the debate is not about phophecies, rather the lack of them in the 'chart' you were favoring. (The verses did not have anything to do with how they were being repersented.)

The TARDIS kicks the DeLorean's ass. The TARDIS has a swimming pool!

[John V]

There's some truth to the chart, but it's incomplete. Some would like to hide it, but the fact is Jewish scholars have recognized the references to a suffering messiah and struggled to reconcile those with the referneces to a triumphant messiah. One method of reconciliation was two messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph (suffering) followed by Messiah ben David (triumphant) - two messiahs, one advent each. Christians go with one messiah, two advents. If you made the chart with the suffering references, then put ben Joseph or Ben David in the Jewish column, and first advent or second advent in the Christian column, it would line up pretty well.

[Marnie]

There's some truth to the chart, but it's incomplete. Some would like to hide it, but the fact is Jewish scholars have recognized the references to a suffering messiah and struggled to reconcile those with the referneces to a triumphant messiah. One method of reconciliation was two messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph (suffering) followed by Messiah ben David (triumphant) - two messiahs, one advent each. Christians go with one messiah, two advents. If you made the chart with the suffering references, then put ben Joseph or Ben David in the Jewish column, and first advent or second advent in the Christian column, it would line up pretty well.

Pish Posh, I've got a new favorite chart now. I don't know who proofreads the school newspaper but they need to be fired.

Atheism:
Monotheistic religion with belief in one eternal God
Atheists believe in the Hebrew bible, one eternal god, and are awaiting a coming messiah
About 14 million people identify as atheists today

This was in my school newspaper in chart form. I wish I was kidding.

[Minimalist]