(December 1, 2012 at 3:19 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 2:33 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: A small amount of years? wtf? That was like close to 400 years!
And again, the conversion of Paul, these "witnesses" you keep naming. It could easily be legend.

When I mean "took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years!" I was referring to the religions of Rome. Christanity swept threw Rome like a wild fire in the first one hundred years with the gosple of Christ. Any historian can tell you that.

You say the witnesses can easily be legend but they can easily be real. Where's your proof for such a statements. atheist make statements like "there was no witnesses of Christ resurrection" but then when we give you witnesses you say there legend. You cant choose history. If they are witnesses they are witnesses. You might dont cnoose to believe it but its still history. The historical facts are the written new testament of the bible. And the church father's of the late and early second century.

These supposed eye witnesses accounts haven't been confirmed as history anymore than the accounts of aliens crashing landing in Roswell in 1947.

And the supposed rapid growth of Christianity, assuming that were true, doesn't prove anything about the resurrection. Christian had just the right the combination of religious rules and promises to make it a success in the course of 400 years. Gentiles were already joining judaism in large numbers before Christianity rose. The only thing stopping a significant conversion to judaism was all of its strict laws such as dietary laws. When Christianity came around with what the gentiles liked about judaism but without those pesky rules, it sealed itself as a success in the long run. This doesn't prove its divinity anymore than the success of the iPhone proves Steve Jobs was God.

(December 1, 2012 at 1:39 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 1:30 am)The truth Wrote: You've answered it. More eye witnesses of a claim leaves us with greater evidence. Witness equals evidence I thought you knew that?

What eye witnesses accounts?

All you have are the gospels written many decades after the events they are supposed to depict, often having widely contradictory accounts. We don't know who really wrote these gospels (the names only come through late guess work of later Christians).

Then you have Paul who's only connection to Jesus was through a "vision" (hallucination?). There's a reference to I think "500" witnesses to the resurrection but that easily can be made up. No body would have bothered to travel all the way Jerusalem to check up on these supposed witnesses to see if they really saw what whatever evangelist said they did.

Even if one or two people decided to play detective and go all the way to Jerusalem to interview somebody who supposedly saw the resurrection, and then found those accounts to false, that wouldn't stop the growth of Christianity. Said detectives could be claimed to be lying or spiritually blind by the evangelist.

Your post is only opinion. If if if if.... These are all opinions. No detective went back in time to refute the five hundred witnesses so this statement is only a theory based on opinions(I get your since of humor). Please atheist show me facts that chrisitanity is false. Its proven that history shows us a empty tomb. Its proven that they never found christ body. Please people make this cite interesting. keep your if's to your self!

Paul didn't just see a vision did you read the story? The men next to him also experienced this visitation. They hurd the voice of Christ. Illusions does not allow three people at the same time to here the same exact vey words. It often effects the eyes not the ears.

(December 1, 2012 at 3:47 am)The truth Wrote: ...
Your post is only opinion. If if if if.... These are all opinions. No detective went back in time to refute the five hundred witnesses so this statement is only a theory based on opinions(I get your since of humor). Please atheist show me facts that chrisitanity is false. Its proven that history shows us a empty tomb. Its proven that they never found christ body. Please people make this cite interesting. keep your if's to your self!

Paul didn't just see a vision did you read the story? The men next to him also experienced this visitation. They hurd the voice of Christ. Illusions does not allow three people at the same time to here the same exact vey words. It often effects the eyes not the ears.

These aren't opinions. They're arguments! You're suppose to address them!

Show that these accounts are actual history and not just the likes of Mother Goose or Hanzel and Gretal. We never observe proven supernatural events today. We have thousands accounts spanning all of human history of gods waging war, dragons, ghosts, ufos, but we never see evidence for them. They can't possibly be all true.

When you make a claim that a miraculous event occurred such as Jesus resurrected or Paul and a few others saw a vision of Christ, you cannot just use their word that those things really happened. You have to bring up a huge mountain of solid evidence to provide adequate proof that such things occurred because in everyday experience, those things never occur. These are not ordinary events.

(December 1, 2012 at 2:13 am)Darkstar Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 2:05 am)The truth Wrote: I don't get it? You say science do not know what started the universe. But then you question the bible's answer concerning the universe. How is that possible? If science don't know than how can you be shore that every one else is wrong? Is this logic? Can you prove that god didn't create the universe based on science? No! Besides, what you stated about deism that's your opinion not fact.

You, sir, are passing off unfalsifiable assumptions with no evidence in support of them as uncontestable fact. I can't prove god didn't do it any more than you can prove he did. It is simply the fact that there is no good reason to believe he did. If you don't have evidence, and science does, but science doesn't know for sure, then I can safely say you can't know for sure either.

And about Deism, that is not an opinion. Do you know the definition of deism? If a god created the universe this would prove a deistic god, but would not be sufficient to prove the specific god Yahweh.

Biochemical Information Systems

Structure of Biochemical Information

Biochemical Codes

Genetic Code Fine-Tuning:
No what these scientific termologys are? When you study them get back at me. And don't study them from an atheist who's bias. Study it from someon with an open mind. There is so many evidence concerning design creation it's not a game. Study these and you will see.

Do you know what the fallacy of the argument from ignorance is? When you study it get back to me.

Geez, this guy makes Godschild and Lion IRC look like geniuses.

(December 1, 2012 at 3:47 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 3:19 am)The truth Wrote: When I mean "took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years!" I was referring to the religions of Rome. Christanity swept threw Rome like a wild fire in the first one hundred years with the gosple of Christ. Any historian can tell you that.

You say the witnesses can easily be legend but they can easily be real. Where's your proof for such a statements. atheist make statements like "there was no witnesses of Christ resurrection" but then when we give you witnesses you say there legend. You cant choose history. If they are witnesses they are witnesses. You might dont cnoose to believe it but its still history. The historical facts are the written new testament of the bible. And the church father's of the late and early second century.

These supposed eye witnesses accounts haven't been confirmed as history anymore than the accounts of aliens crashing landing in Roswell in 1947.
It hasn't been confirmed? The church fathers document? That's not confirmation?

And the supposed rapid growth of Christianity, assuming that were true, doesn't prove anything about the resurrection. Christian had just the right the combination of religious rules and promises to make it a success in the course of 400 years. Gentiles were already joining judaism in large numbers before Christianity rose. The only thing stopping a significant conversion to judaism was all of its strict laws such as dietary laws. When Christianity came around with what the gentiles liked about judaism but without those pesky rules, it sealed itself as a success in the long run. This doesn't prove its divinity anymore than the success of the iPhone proves Steve Jobs was God.

"Gentiles were already joining judaism in large numbers before Christianity rose."
That's not true. They may have excepted some of there rituals but joining Judaism in a large number? That's not true. youre reaching a little high on that one don't you think? Before chrisitanity arose the Jewish people were under rome's subjection. They wasn't going to give up there gods for such strict laws even you say that. Judaism requires serving only one god.

Why doesn't it prove anything about the ressurection? The church was established on Jesus Christ. He promised that the church would grow and it did. If christ was only a legend chrisitanity would have dwindled off way before the 4th century. Early Christians died for what they said they saw that early morining. If it were a lie that wouldn't have happened. Granted men die for there religion everyday but there is no one who would die, change there religion and cause there families to be tormented all on the bases of a lie. And that's what the early first Christians did.

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(December 1, 2012 at 3:58 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 3:47 am)The truth Wrote: ...
Your post is only opinion. If if if if.... These are all opinions. No detective went back in time to refute the five hundred witnesses so this statement is only a theory based on opinions(I get your since of humor). Please atheist show me facts that chrisitanity is false. Its proven that history shows us a empty tomb. Its proven that they never found christ body. Please people make this cite interesting. keep your if's to your self!

Paul didn't just see a vision did you read the story? The men next to him also experienced this visitation. They hurd the voice of Christ. Illusions does not allow three people at the same time to here the same exact vey words. It often effects the eyes not the ears.

These aren't opinions. They're arguments! You're suppose to address them!

Show that these accounts are actual history and not just the likes of Mother Goose or Hanzel and Gretal. We never observe proven supernatural events today. We have thousands accounts spanning all of human history of gods waging war, dragons, ghosts, ufos, but we never see evidence for them. They can't possibly be all true.

When you make a claim that a miraculous event occurred such as Jesus resurrected or Paul and a few others saw a vision of Christ, you cannot just use their word that those things really happened. You have to bring up a huge mountain of solid evidence to provide adequate proof that such things occurred because in everyday experience, those things never occur. These are not ordinary events.

CAN I WRITE THIS EVEN CLEARER? history gives you eye witness accounts from men who gave there lives over to be burned. If this was a lie they wouldn't have done so. No one dies on the bases of lies. And besides because history reveals eye witnesses it is up to you to refute it not me. You claim that these historical facts are not reliable prove it. But you can't. So you keep asking me to do it. When I've already stated the historical facts. Again it is a fact that there were eye witness in history disprove it. The decsiples were eye witnesses and died for what they believed. We know that the church fathers knew the disciples personally and stated there own testament of the truth. That's in history. Check the archives! Check the historians! We know this. What? You're going to ask me to prove it again? I've stated historical facts you state yours! Come atheist you can do better

(December 1, 2012 at 4:58 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 3:47 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: These supposed eye witnesses accounts haven't been confirmed as history anymore than the accounts of aliens crashing landing in Roswell in 1947.

It hasn't been confirmed? The church fathers document? That's not confirmation?

Assertions of historical figures is not enough proof for a miraculous event.

Quote:"Gentiles were already joining judaism in large numbers before Christianity rose."
That's not true. They may have excepted some of there rituals but joining Judaism in a large number? That's not true. youre reaching a little high on that one don't you think? Before chrisitanity arose the Jewish people were under rome's subjection. They wasn't going to give up there gods for such strict laws even you say that. Judaism requires serving only one god.

There were a number of gentiles converting to judaism. A good many were able to submit to judaism's restrictions (and monotheism) but not as many as there could have been because of the restrictions. This is basic mainstream history. Look it up if you like. I might provide citations if this debate is worth the effort.

Christianity or something like it was inevitable. It met the growing demand of the time and because of that it grew. It's not miraculous. It's just good marketing.

A lot of this is explained in the book "Not the Impossible Faith" by phd historian Richard Carrier.

Quote:Why doesn't it prove anything about the ressurection? The church was established on Jesus Christ. He promised that the church would grow and it did.

We don't know for sure what Jesus said. Very little of the gospels can be truthfully said to be authentic sayings of Jesus with any degree of certainty.

Quote:If christ was only a legend chrisitanity would have dwindled off way before the 4th century.

Um, except for you know every single other religion in the history of mankind, several of which continue to this day.

Quote: Early Christians died for what they said they saw that early morining. If it were a lie that wouldn't have happened. Granted men die for there religion everyday but there is no one who would die, change there religion and cause there families to be tormented all on the bases of a lie. And that's what the early first Christians did.

Who said they were lying? How about delusional?

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(December 1, 2012 at 4:58 am)The truth Wrote: ...
CAN I WRITE THIS EVEN CLEARER? history gives you eye witness accounts from men who gave there lives over to be burned. If this was a lie they wouldn't have done so. No one dies on the bases of lies. And besides because history reveals eye witnesses it is up to you to refute it not me. You claim that these historical facts are not reliable prove it. But you can't. So you keep asking me to do it. When I've already stated the historical facts. Again it is a fact that there were eye witness in history disprove it. The decsiples were eye witnesses and died for what they believed. We know that the church fathers knew the disciples personally and stated there own testament of the truth. That's in history. Check the archives! Check the historians! We know this. What? You're going to ask me to prove it again? I've stated historical facts you state yours! Come atheist you can do better

I have been abducted by aliens on several occasions. They come at night during the spring time and do weird experiments on my body. You can even see the scars they left. My friend Bob, who's away at the moment also claims he saw me being lifted up into their spacecraft one night.

Prove that I wasn't abducted.