(December 6, 2012 at 12:14 pm)TaraJo Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 6:55 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: What, an extremist political movement exploiting Islamic fundamentalism to gain recruits is suddenly and inextricably a religious problem?

Yeah, exactly. Because it's damn hard to convince people to fly airplanes into buildings without getting them to believe there's a reward in the afterlife.

Besides the fact that it's nearly impossible to get someone to kill themselves in the name of no-god and the fact that it's so easy to get the devoutly religious to do some damn crazy things (Christians are guilty of this as well, not just Muslims). See, saying 'God wills it' protects your argument from logic or reason. You could turn around and say 'Maybe flying airplanes into buildings isn't going to help our political cause' and the response is that you're questioning god. Maybe you could say 'I'd rather find a way to continue serving god after this attack, so I'm not ok with a suicide attack' and the response is that you're questioning god. You could say 'Know what? I think you catch more flies with honey than vinegar' at which point they accuse you of questioning god. Do you see a pattern here, Vinny?

Off the top of my head, the only time I've seen that level of blind faith in strictly atheistic institutions was the soviet takeover of Russia an eastern Europe, but all they did was change the philosophy slightly: instead of blind fath and allegiance to god, they promoted blind faith and allegiance to the state. Either way, that kind of blind, unquestioning faith is extremely dangerous, whether it's from secular or theistic sources. The problem with religion is that so much of what they tell us encourages blind faith.

And this disproves the conclusion of a half a dozen political think-tanks on both political wings about the origin of Islamic extremism how?

Most of the people who fight and die are poor. Isolated. Alienated from the culture. Unemployed. Uneducated.

They will listen to any bullshit, get emotionally invested into any cause as long as they love the leader and trust his message.

Surprisingly, if you build enough love/hate in someone, they will willingly fight and die for a cause, afterlife or not. Look at the IRA. Look at the Palestinian civilians who willingly choose to die. Look at the US Army, kids joining to fight and die.

Shit's not hard.

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(December 6, 2012 at 12:50 pm)Kirbmarc Wrote:

Quote:You know they found tons of porn in OBL's man-cave right? How could he have been a "true Muslim" if he was caught fapping to "Hot and Sexy Heartthrobs Sexy Nurse Lady Time 12"?

Do you really think that religious fundamentalists are as squeaky clean as they claim they are? "True Muslims" or "True Christians" are no less prone to perusing porn than anyone else.

It certainly makes you a hypocrite.

And it explains how OBL selectively ignored some commands of his religion while obeying others.

Picking and choosing what to obey based on what fulfills his actual desire- an Islamic caliphate.

You think he was trying to oust Israel and their supporters, but his aims were much more sinister. He was using Israel as an emotional chip to gain the popular support of people all over the Middle East.

One thing I'm confident about with religion- if you are truly a devout follower, you will forever be wrapped up in the foibles of your religion.

A short, easy to read writeup that captures his vision nicely:

http://www.hnn.us/articles/7378.html

As I have found out, it can be just as limiting as religion. One cannot close area's of the mind without stunting their growth and knowledge.

Quote:It certainly makes you a hypocrite.

Many fundamentalists are hypocrites.

Quote:You think he was trying to oust Israel and their supporters, but his aims were much more sinister. He was using Israel as an emotional chip to gain the popular support of people all over the Middle East.

I happen to have read about it. And it doesn't surprise me. Terrorists and dictators always use the threat of "the enemy" to gain support. It's a century old stategy, but it still yields good results.

(December 6, 2012 at 6:30 pm)JohnDG Wrote: As I have found out, it can be just as limiting as religion. One cannot close areas of the mind without stunting their growth and knowledge.

Yes, this is my discovery as well.

Not all spiritual people blow up towers, same way as not all atheists are Stalin.

(December 6, 2012 at 6:30 pm)JohnDG Wrote: As I have found out, it can be just as limiting as religion. One cannot close area's of the mind without stunting their growth and knowledge.

I don't like labels, any labels can restrict, but as a shorthand explanation of my point of view non-belief/atheism, I am not too uncomfortable with.

(December 6, 2012 at 6:16 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Most of the people who fight and die are poor. Isolated. Alienated from the culture. Unemployed. Uneducated.

That's true. It's easier to find a better way to resolve a situation if you have a better education than just your holy book, no question there. I think the big problem with religion, though, is that not only do their fundamentalist branches tend to be uninformed, they specifically resist any attempt to educate them. Look how the far right here is fighting any attempt to educate anyone about overpopulation, climate change, psychological science on sexuality, palentology or any one of several other fields of science. And they use god to shield their wrongness; they claim "God says _____ and since God is always right, ____ must be true!" You can't get any further than that unless you're going to debate them their own holy book (and in the case of the Bible, it's a holy book that kinda constantly contradicts itself anyway).

Quote:They will listen to any bullshit, get emotionally invested into any cause as long as they love the leader and trust his message.

Yes, a charismatic leader can do that. There have been plenty of charismatic leaders who didn't use religion, but there have been far more who did use religion. It just gives them an extra layer of armor; you aren't just questioning the leader, you quetion god himself.

Quote:Surprisingly, if you build enough love/hate in someone, they will willingly fight and die for a cause, afterlife or not. Look at the IRA. Look at the Palestinian civilians who willingly choose to die. Look at the US Army, kids joining to fight and die.

Wait a minute..... are you actually saying that the fighting in Palestine and Northern Ireland doesn't have anything to do with religion? Really? Have you paid any attention to either conflict? 'Cause from what I see, religious differences are a central theme to why the people are fighting each other in BOTH cases.

Vinny, you're either stupid or you're a troll who knows he's losing and doesn't want to admit it. Either way, it's really sad.

(December 6, 2012 at 10:32 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Wait a minute..... are you actually saying that the fighting in Palestine and Northern Ireland doesn't have anything to do with religion? Really? Have you paid any attention to either conflict? 'Cause from what I see, religious differences are a central theme to why the people are fighting each other in BOTH cases.

Vinny, you're either stupid or you're a troll who knows he's losing and doesn't want to admit it. Either way, it's really sad.

Not arguing Vinny's point but I grew up in NI and to be blatantly honest it doesn't have much to do with religion. Some of the founders of the original Irish Nationalist movements were Protestants and some of the people that wanted to remain British were Catholics and vice versa.

Men in high places in the early 1900s realised they could gain armies behind their political ideas by suggesting "Home Rule meant Rome Rule". In other words, Ireland would be ruled by the Pope if more powers were taken away from London. This was to strike fear into the Protestants and make them sign up to loyalism.

The ironic thing is 100 years down the line you can be a Protestant or a Catholic in mainland Britain and the Republic of Ireland and no one will give a shit. Yet still in Northern Ireland people fight over it. In fact, you can be a Muslim in NI as long as you are a Muslim-Protestant or a Muslim-Catholic depending on what area you are in.

It's a political and tribal symbolism - not many of the paramilitaries have even been to church. I have a friend that is a pretty militant atheist yet would still label himself a "Prod" [Protestant] when referring to his cultural identity or political beliefs.

(December 6, 2012 at 10:32 pm)TaraJo Wrote:

(December 6, 2012 at 6:16 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Most of the people who fight and die are poor. Isolated. Alienated from the culture. Unemployed. Uneducated.

That's true. It's easier to find a better way to resolve a situation if you have a better education than just your holy book, no question there. I think the big problem with religion, though, is that not only do their fundamentalist branches tend to be uninformed, they specifically resist any attempt to educate them. Look how the far right here is fighting any attempt to educate anyone about overpopulation, climate change, psychological science on sexuality, palentology or any one of several other fields of science. And they use god to shield their wrongness; they claim "God says _____ and since God is always right, ____ must be true!" You can't get any further than that unless you're going to debate them their own holy book (and in the case of the Bible, it's a holy book that kinda constantly contradicts itself anyway).

Quote:They will listen to any bullshit, get emotionally invested into any cause as long as they love the leader and trust his message.

Yes, a charismatic leader can do that. There have been plenty of charismatic leaders who didn't use religion, but there have been far more who did use religion. It just gives them an extra layer of armor; you aren't just questioning the leader, you quetion god himself.

Quote:Surprisingly, if you build enough love/hate in someone, they will willingly fight and die for a cause, afterlife or not. Look at the IRA. Look at the Palestinian civilians who willingly choose to die. Look at the US Army, kids joining to fight and die.

Wait a minute..... are you actually saying that the fighting in Palestine and Northern Ireland doesn't have anything to do with religion? Really? Have you paid any attention to either conflict? 'Cause from what I see, religious differences are a central theme to why the people are fighting each other in BOTH cases.

Vinny, you're either stupid or you're a troll who knows he's losing and doesn't want to admit it. Either way, it's really sad.

I'm convinced that the fighting in Palestine isn't motivated by religion. Granted, the people in power love to use Allah's name because it gets the people to follow them. But in that sense people and religion are being manipulated for ultimately social ends. Religion is a factor, but not a driving factor. Palestinians and Israelis are not fighting because of Islamic or Jewish ideals.

Same with NI. It was more about hatred in the end, and money and politics and power than Catholics and Protestants. naimless said it best.

PS- what's with the personal insults? I demand apophenia comes here to rescue me.

(December 6, 2012 at 6:30 pm)JohnDG Wrote: As I have found out, it can be just as limiting as religion. One cannot close area's of the mind without stunting their growth and knowledge.

It heartens me to know that we are so alike... I once said that very same thing about eating goldfish. I'm still right.



Goldfish are the devil, and eating them stunts growth and knowledge!

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(December 6, 2012 at 10:05 pm)jonb Wrote: I don't like labels, any labels can restrict, but as a shorthand explanation of my point of view non-belief/atheism, I am not too uncomfortable with.

I love labels. Tree, I believe to be a very effective label. Saves on renaming every individual, well... tree.

Restrictions are nice, because without them there is only the infinite. When everything is the only something, nothing is all that can be identified.

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(December 7, 2012 at 1:15 am)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: PS- what's with the personal insults? I demand apophenia comes here to rescue me.

She's after your pretty frilly soul! Don't let her have her way with it!



I could almost excuse this... but she wore *those* shoes. What the hell was she thinking? This is why you must keep your soul close to you at all times. Don't want fashionless fools to take advantage of it, do we now?!

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(December 6, 2012 at 8:29 pm)naimless Wrote: Not all spiritual people blow up towers, same way as not all atheists are Stalin.

If spiritual people ain't blowing up towers... then what the hell is the point of having all of that positive energy?

Why hoard that?! SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD! It's so... selfish. And don't get me wrong... many spiritual people are like that, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or emulate their pathetic and callous behavior!



<----- The way I am going.

(December 7, 2012 at 8:42 am)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: I love labels. Tree, I believe to be a very effective label. Saves on renaming every individual, well... tree.

Restrictions are nice, because without them there is only the infinite. When everything is the only something, nothing is all that can be identified.
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Categories only tell part of the picture, very few things have hard and fast edges. We live in a relative universe, where everything is interconnected, and I enjoy playing with all the differences if you know what I mean.