The main bad things in Islam that spring to mind are the same ones that I consider bad in xtianity, scientology, or any other religious system. Namely, that reason and critical thinking are suppressed in favour of superstition, dogma and undeserved, unquestioning obeisance to a self-aggrandised elite. That this mindset is so absurdly paranoid that the merest hint of opposition is blown out of all proportion, often involving blood. That whenever dogma and reality come into conflict, reality is held suspect. That the opinions of the least credible sources are deemed to be of at least equal value with peer-reviewed and published research. That the weakest and most vulnerable are preyed upon in the guise of and in lieu of genuine support. That the whole mess is so poisonously, insidiously pervasive that followers actually entrap themselves, willingly and eagerly.

Apart from that, I don't really have a problem with it.

My knowledge of Islam is very sketchy so I'll have to ask you two questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Islam

Why don't all Muslims follow the Golden Rule as taught in Islam?

I found a very interesting article while wandering around the internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rash...63527.html

Why don't all Muslims interpret the teachings of Islam like that?

(January 19, 2013 at 11:17 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Anything posted must have proofs from the Qur'an and Authentic Hadith's.

Um, "Time Out."

Who defines "authentic?" You?

The scholars of Islam.

---

(January 19, 2013 at 11:28 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Really? There's an entire site called the Skeptic's Annotated Quran which includes instances of Injustice, intolerance, cruelty, absurdities, dodgy attitudes towards women and science, and other stuff.

Seriously, you can either look at it by sura or by the type of bad thing. Just go and take your pick.

And the same people have done the same with the King James Bible and the Book of Mormon for what it's worth.

Lol been through that website its a load of s***t.

---

(January 20, 2013 at 9:29 am)Confused Ape Wrote: My knowledge of Islam is very sketchy so I'll have to ask you two questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Islam

Why don't all Muslims follow the Golden Rule as taught in Islam?

I found a very interesting article while wandering around the internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rash...63527.html

Why don't all Muslims interpret the teachings of Islam like that?

Because of alot of Muslims don't know Islam. If i asked a Muslim what Tawheed is. Many wouldn't know. A Muslim girl at my school didn't think Jesus(PBUH) was a prophet of Islam and shed been Muslim 17 years...
But i don't really know.

(January 19, 2013 at 10:32 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: I'm always open to challenging Islam and the Qur'an. [...] Anything posted must have proofs from the Qur'an and Authentic Hadith's.

(January 20, 2013 at 9:34 am)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Lol been through that website its a load of s***t.

Not all that open, then; particularly since you expect all responses to have a scriptural basis, "proofs" as you put it, yet you're allowed to just dismiss anything you want with nothing more than a "Lol".

Incidentally, there's only four letters in "shit".

(January 20, 2013 at 9:53 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(January 19, 2013 at 10:32 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: I'm always open to challenging Islam and the Qur'an. [...] Anything posted must have proofs from the Qur'an and Authentic Hadith's.

(January 20, 2013 at 9:34 am)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Lol been through that website its a load of s***t.

Not all that open, then; particularly since you expect all responses to have a scriptural basis, "proofs" as you put it, yet you're allowed to just dismiss anything you want with nothing more than a "Lol".

Incidentally, there's only four letters in "shit".

oops. I cant spell.

I am open. I asked for scriptual based proofs. Because saying look this Muslim did this. Is like saying look this Christian did this. Look this atheist did this. That was done on views on Islam. So i was looking for something that had a basis in the religion.
I didn't dismiss anyone i've been through the website and recorected it all. Didn't find anything. I use to use the website as an atheist so i've been aware of it for years.

That's not my point. You dismissed the entire response with little more than "Lol, that's a load of shit", yet you expect everyone else to present referenced "proofs". I could say I've spent years studying and correcting your 'holy' book and it's all a load of shit, but I would do you the courtesy of at least considering the subject instead of dismissing it out of hand; and I doubt you would merely accept my word anyway. When you decide to hold yourself to the same standard that you ask of others, maybe more people will want to play.

(January 20, 2013 at 10:03 am)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: I am open. I asked for scriptual based proofs. Because saying look this Muslim did this. Is like saying look this Christian did this. Look this atheist did this.

When we do something like that, most of us make sure that it's not just the individual doing a wrong action, because that would indeed be a flawed argument. However, when we do use individuals as examples, it's when those individuals have committed an act in the name of/in obedience to scripture. Osama Bin Laden didn't just do what he did because "fuck the world, and all its people!", he did it because Allah clear sanctions the mass murdering, and indeed genocide, of all those who have no faith in him, as per the Qur'an (and the bible as well, for that matter, although that hold no relevance atm). You can't wriggle out of this one.

Quote:Lol been through that website its a load of s***t.

They go through the whole book, passage to passage, listing exactly what is unpleasant and absurd about it. The only way it could possible be a load of shit is either: They just wrote a load of unrelated shit next to each verse, wasting thousands of hours with the sole aim just to spew random sentences next to each passage for shits'n giggles, or you are completely biased and simply refuse to listen when someone else point out what's wrong with the ancient book written by semi literate scholars some 1.5 millennia ago, that you, for some inexplicable reason, base your whole life around.

I went along to the Skeptic's website and clicked on the Elephant link. I then found a quote which didn't give any kind of context so I hadn't a clue why the elephant owners were attacked by a swarm of flying creatures.

I googled the story and found an account on wikipedia but it didn't provide enough background information so I had to do another search for Abraha.

I can't face trying to find the context for all the other quotes because my arthritis is playing up. I don't mind skeptik sites using debunking quotes but I do get fed up when they don't provide any kind of context.

prejudice towards other religion

Quote:Qur’an (5:51) Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them

9.29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

98.6
Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Condtradictory accounts of the way muslims treat other religions.

Quote:There is no compulsion in religion.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quote:Fighting
Taken from hadith
The prophet said "a single endevour of fighting in allahs cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than the whole world and whatever is in it.

One ex muslim who became an apostate after he was disgusted by the acts of muslims around the world has also argued that he sees similarities between the islamic jihad and the nazi mein kampf.

Quote:5.33
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

women

Quote:And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her.

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Bored of arguing about this verse, it normally brings up contradictory muslim statements of "it doesnt mean hit physically it means hit with an idea" "it does mean hit physically but like a hitting with a toothbrush" "it does mean hit hard but wouldnt you hit your wife hard if she tried to jump out of a window or something?"

Im going to leave it at that for now just incase my PC fucks up and i have to re find all that stuff again theres more to come though

(January 20, 2013 at 10:49 am)Stimbo Wrote: That's not my point. You dismissed the entire response with little more than "Lol, that's a load of shit", yet you expect everyone else to present referenced "proofs". I could say I've spent years studying and correcting your 'holy' book and it's all a load of shit, but I would do you the courtesy of at least considering the subject instead of dismissing it out of hand; and I doubt you would merely accept my word anyway. When you decide to hold yourself to the same standard that you ask of others, maybe more people will want to play.

Ok i apologise. Thankyou for the link.

---

(January 20, 2013 at 10:49 am)killybob Wrote:

(January 20, 2013 at 10:03 am)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: I am open. I asked for scriptual based proofs. Because saying look this Muslim did this. Is like saying look this Christian did this. Look this atheist did this.

When we do something like that, most of us make sure that it's not just the individual doing a wrong action, because that would indeed be a flawed argument. However, when we do use individuals as examples, it's when those individuals have committed an act in the name of/in obedience to scripture. Osama Bin Laden didn't just do what he did because "fuck the world, and all its people!", he did it because Allah clear sanctions the mass murdering, and indeed genocide, of all those who have no faith in him, as per the Qur'an (and the bible as well, for that matter, although that hold no relevance atm). You can't wriggle out of this one.

Quote:Lol been through that website its a load of s***t.

They go through the whole book, passage to passage, listing exactly what is unpleasant and absurd about it. The only way it could possible be a load of shit is either: They just wrote a load of unrelated shit next to each verse, wasting thousands of hours with the sole aim just to spew random sentences next to each passage for shits'n giggles, or you are completely biased and simply refuse to listen when someone else point out what's wrong with the ancient book written by semi literate scholars some 1.5 millennia ago, that you, for some inexplicable reason, base your whole life around.

What i meant is i've read the entire website. It didn't present anything bad. Instead it presented incorrect information.

---

(January 20, 2013 at 11:47 am)paulpablo Wrote: prejudice towards other religion

Quote:Qur’an (5:51) Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them

9.29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

98.6
Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Condtradictory accounts of the way muslims treat other religions.

Quote:There is no compulsion in religion.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quote:Fighting
Taken from hadith
The prophet said "a single endevour of fighting in allahs cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than the whole world and whatever is in it.

One ex muslim who became an apostate after he was disgusted by the acts of muslims around the world has also argued that he sees similarities between the islamic jihad and the nazi mein kampf.

Quote:5.33
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

women

Quote:And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her.

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Bored of arguing about this verse, it normally brings up contradictory muslim statements of "it doesnt mean hit physically it means hit with an idea" "it does mean hit physically but like a hitting with a toothbrush" "it does mean hit hard but wouldnt you hit your wife hard if she tried to jump out of a window or something?"

Im going to leave it at that for now just incase my PC fucks up and i have to re find all that stuff again theres more to come though

Thankyou PaulPablo. Always love your posts. :-D