(January 21, 2013 at 9:12 am)Confused Ape Wrote: Well, he wouldn't have made any mention of morality because he didn't live in modern Western society. Even today, the age of consent varies in Europe.

He would have made mention of morality if he had anything to do with deity. Are you saying he didn't know Allah's will on this subject?

Also... the UK age of consent is 16. France is 15. Maybe you were thinking of that.

The point still stands... There's a big difference between 9 and 14. The additional laws for the 14 year olds shows the societies discomfort with it. A supposed consort with perfect morality should never stay silent on such a questionable tradition.

People just seem to forget how things were in the dark ages.

Do you think that a child from the dark ages is the same as today ? you have military leaders during that era who were (according to today's definition) minor children, and they used to kick ass in battles.

But still, this is not mentioned in the quran (that aisha was 9). so simply, it cannot be trusted.

about me, I wouldn't be offended if somebody mentioned that up, because the dark ages were just (weird) according to today's definition. So an attack on mohammad's act, is simply an attack on all medieval humans.

But in the same time, nobody can prove that this actually happened. People said it happened. But people also said that earth is flat.

(January 21, 2013 at 3:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: He would have made mention of morality if he had anything to do with deity. Are you saying he didn't know Allah's will on this subject?

I was looking at him as an historical figure and pointing out that he was a man who was a product of his place and time. I then said that he could have changed the custom but didn't because he obviously didn't think to do so. This has now led to atheists asking Muslims why God didn't tell him that having sex with 9 year old girls is bad from a medical point of view. After all, God is supposed to have created humans so you think he'd have told his prophet not to do it.

Quote:Also... the UK age of consent is 16. France is 15. Maybe you were thinking of that.

If you look through the entire list of age of consent in different countries you'll see that the lowest age is 13 in Spain. The highest is 18 in Turkey where the majority of the population is Muslim. I was just saying that there are better ways of pointing out bad things in Islam than trying to imply that every Muslim male in the world wants to have sex with 9 year old girls.

(January 21, 2013 at 3:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The point still stands... There's a big difference between 9 and 14. The additional laws for the 14 year olds shows the societies discomfort with it.

Yes, there is a big difference but the fact is that morality is still defined by law and it varies even between Western countries. Spaniards obviously don't think there's anything wrong with the age of consent being 13. This was all part of pointing out that Muhammed didn't see anything wrong with what he did because he wasn't born and bred in 21st Century Turkey. We can now ask Muslims why God didn't tell him that the custom in his time and place was wrong.

(January 21, 2013 at 3:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: A supposed consort with perfect morality should never stay silent on such a questionable tradition.

That's something which Muslims have to address. I'm not a Muslim - I'm an atheist. I'm just one of those annoying people who likes to get a discussion point clearly defined so everyone knows what's being discussed.

@AtlasS

[quote='AtlasS' pid='389863' dateline='1358798660']

Quote:But still, this is not mentioned in the quran (that aisha was 9). so simply, it cannot be trusted.

Where did people get the idea that Aisha was 9 from?

(January 21, 2013 at 4:25 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: Where did people get the idea that Aisha was 9 from?

The story goes :

With the prophet, there were writers, called (the writers of the revelations). When the prophet gets a revelation, they directly write it. The oldest and most trusted source is this (aka, Quran).

After 200 years from the prophet's death, some scholars wanted to document what he said, other than the revelations.

there books came to be known as (the hadith books). They are written on asking people about what they heard, other than the quran.

that's the source of aisha being 9.

so, we can clearly say : the prediction of aisha's age came after 200 years, which makes it "very untrusted".

BTW, most problems in islam are caused by these books, and their contradictions.

(January 21, 2013 at 4:39 pm)AtlasS Wrote: there books came to be known as (the hadith books). They are written on asking people about what they heard, other than the quran.

that's the source of aisha being 9.

so, we can clearly say : the prediction of aisha's age came after 200 years, which makes it "very untrusted".

Does that mean when atheists are trying to discuss Islam with a Muslim we should find out what the Muslim concerned thinks about the hadith books?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

Quote:The largest denominations of Islam, Sunni, Shiʻa, and Ibadi, rely upon different sets of hadith collections.

Do you, personally, regard any of the sets of hadith collections as trustworthy. If so, why do you?

(January 21, 2013 at 4:04 pm)AtlasS Wrote: People just seem to forget how things were in the dark ages.

Do you think that a child from the dark ages is the same as today ? you have military leaders during that era who were (according to today's definition) minor children, and they used to kick ass in battles.

But still, this is not mentioned in the quran (that aisha was 9). so simply, it cannot be trusted.

about me, I wouldn't be offended if somebody mentioned that up, because the dark ages were just (weird) according to today's definition. So an attack on mohammad's act, is simply an attack on all medieval humans.

But in the same time, nobody can prove that this actually happened. People said it happened. But people also said that earth is flat.

Hi AtlasS

The problem is that a lot of muslims think that the quran is good for every Man at anytime, and the prophet is to be considered as a great man to imitate...

Anyway, the quran said, at 65.4 : "And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease."

Can someone explain me this?

This is a quran quote... I could find other stuff in hadiths

(January 21, 2013 at 4:39 pm)AtlasS Wrote: BTW, most problems in islam are caused by these books, and their contradictions.

I think that honor goes to believing in imaginary angry supernatural things that want to torture you. Or at least won't feel bad when you get tortured.