(February 11, 2013 at 11:47 am)Drich Wrote: In short, There are 66 book that make the bible, There are thousands more describing this same time period in one way or another, in the vaulted libaries of the vatican. there is your 'contemporary record.'

Well firstly, and considering that your affiliation says "christian", most importantly, all of the other records, books, and other works from the time of the early christian writings that didn't get into the bible are not considered canonical by the modern catholic church, and a great number of the various break-away factions, including the orthodox churches and the protestants. In other words, what is contained in those books has absolutely no bearing on what happened to Jesus, if he existed, since the early church declared that they were heretical.

Secondly, and from my perspective most importantly, they still aren't contemporary since none of them were written when Jesus was alive. The earliest copies of any known christian work is some 50-60 years after he supposedly died, as far as I know anyway, and I've looked into this extensively.

So no, there are no contemporary documents.

You have to remember as well that a lot of other people were trying to compile canonical writings before the Byzantine Emperor, Constantine, called for the first Council of Nicaea. Many tried to add to, take away from, or even make up entire documents to influence how the biblical canon would form.

Mark 16:18, for instance, is generally considered a forgery by modern day scholars.

(February 11, 2013 at 11:39 am)Question Mark Wrote: Or at least, the bible tells us that Jesus said that.

Er, yes, that typically goes without saying in such a discussion. Gets kinda tedious to say "or at least the Bible says that" after every Biblical reference.

(February 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm)John V Wrote:

(February 11, 2013 at 11:39 am)Question Mark Wrote: Or at least, the bible tells us that Jesus said that.

Er, yes, that typically goes without saying in such a discussion. Gets kinda tedious to say "or at least the Bible says that" after every Biblical reference.

My apologies

(February 11, 2013 at 12:04 pm)Question Mark Wrote:

(February 11, 2013 at 11:47 am)Drich Wrote: In short, There are 66 book that make the bible, There are thousands more describing this same time period in one way or another, in the vaulted libaries of the vatican. there is your 'contemporary record.'

Well firstly, and considering that your affiliation says "christian", most importantly, all of the other records, books, and other works from the time of the early christian writings that didn't get into the bible are not considered canonical by the modern catholic church, and a great number of the various break-away factions, including the orthodox churches and the protestants. In other words, what is contained in those books has absolutely no bearing on what happened to Jesus, if he existed, since the early church declared that they were heretical.

Secondly, and from my perspective most importantly, they still aren't contemporary since none of them were written when Jesus was alive. The earliest copies of any known christian work is some 50-60 years after he supposedly died, as far as I know anyway, and I've looked into this extensively.

So no, there are no contemporary documents.

You have to remember as well that a lot of other people were trying to compile canonical writings before the Byzantine Emperor, Constantine, called for the first Council of Nicaea. Many tried to add to, take away from, or even make up entire documents to influence how the biblical canon would form.

Mark 16:18, for instance, is generally considered a forgery by modern day scholars.

Do you have a list of any documents written when Christ was alive?

You are looking to compare apples to apples right?

(February 11, 2013 at 12:47 pm)Drich Wrote: Do you have a list of any documents written when Christ was alive?

You are looking to compare apples to apples right?

I am not aware that any such documents exist. Do you have such a list of documents written by Jesus, or by those who knew him when he was alive?

Just as a matter of interest, no offense meant here, but you do know what "contemporary" means in the historical context, yes?

(February 11, 2013 at 10:06 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I agree that man is fallible. So Genesis illustrates this point and therefore Jesus came to... point us in the right direction?

... save us from sin
Offer a way to perfection. Is the sacrifice.

(February 11, 2013 at 10:06 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Absolutely. This reminds me of my former self actually. My attempts to align Christianity to reality is what led to my deconversion.

Well the Genesis story before Walton was pretty vague. Neither side really had the advantage, although those on my side and yours were obviously the most intelligent. :p

(February 11, 2013 at 10:06 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Ah, I see...

Maybe he's a reformer of Christianity for all we know.

Wow you're generous lol

Yeah I think he sees himself like that. He doesn't get what christians are saying to him and holds on to his own position. Nothing wrong with that, apart from the obvious flaws. But loads of people have beliefs that don't compute. Most because they don't think about it. Catty thinks about it but somehow has reached a point where he's beyond reason.

[quote='FallentoReason' pid='399481' dateline='1360565994']
Simple question: for those of you who believe Genesis is but mere poetry and not history, what does that imply about the New Testament? What does Paul actually mean when he says "through one man, sin entered the world" in Romans 5:12 and why did Jesus need to be crucified to revert the effects of an allegory?


Actually - the whole thing is a bunch of fairy tales
The christ certainly did not exist as described in the NT. Paul - who did exist -never actually met the christ - but then NO ONE actually did. He is just a continuation of a number of old religions - embellished and exaggerated

Archeology is exposing more and more of the bible as being MYTH - not just genesis.

See http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html

(February 11, 2013 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yeah I think he sees himself like that. He doesn't get what christians are saying to him and holds on to his own position. Nothing wrong with that, apart from the obvious flaws. But loads of people have beliefs that don't compute. Most because they don't think about it. Catty thinks about it but somehow has reached a point where he's beyond reason.

I am sooooo sorry for having morals and condeming human sacrifice (which goes against scripture btw).
Woe to those who call evil good and all that.... ( I agree with that verese)
.

Not so much a human sacrifice but a sacrifice of God to himself to release humanity from the bondage of sin that he created to begin with, but only if you believe that happened or something. Though it was only a 3 day sacrifice that being the length of time Jesus spent in hell.

(February 11, 2013 at 6:34 pm)Zone Wrote: Not so much a human sacrifice but a sacrifice of God to himself to release humanity from the bondage of sin that he created to begin with, but only if you believe that happened or something. Though it was only a 3 day sacrifice that being the length of time Jesus spent in hell.

That pagan crap goes against scriptures on so many levels.
.