(February 14, 2013 at 7:33 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 7:08 pm)Zone Wrote: We could have turned out "evil" as well had we been born into different circumstances and/or we had some kind of malformation of the brain. But there would still be the offer purification there in the Christian system and you have the freewill to reject the offer. Once you reject it you get whats coming to you in hell. So the system seems kind of fair to me, as long as "good" non-Christians can be judged on how good they were.

By these standards though, if I live a good life but don't believe, I still go to hell. And while I understand the nature/nurture component of this, it is still a very unjust system designed and maintained by a supposedly omniscient god who knew what I would do in the first place.

There are several rebuttals to the argument you presented above.
1. There is no "hell" and it was just Greek mythology added.
2. Even if hell were real, the Bible says "aeonian" (pertaining to an age)
3. Romans 2 speaks of Gentiles who do not have the law. (unbelievers)
.

(February 14, 2013 at 5:12 pm)Stimbo Wrote: A leap of faith, otherwise known as a flash of inspiration, is fine and can in fact be a perfectly valid aid to investigation.The problems come when, having made that inspirational leap, we decide that the solution has been found and thus the investigation shuts down.

However, this isn't what Esquilax was referring to. The god of the gaps argument ism basically, "we don't yet have an explanation for phenomenon X; therefore it must have been God". That is the point at which investigation shuts down.

Oah of course not ; the investigation must continue, in either ways it's not harmful for each part.

Quote:I'm not making a judgement here, and I hope I don't come across as condescending, but perhaps you ought to search for a way to rid yourself of this burden if it troubles you so much? Doesn't have to be anything too drastic - you're already making a start with your opinions of hell, for instance.

I'm using the leap of faith right now on them both : ) I'm trying to find an explanation suitable for both of them without contradicting the any other part in the Quran.. The operation becomes hard & you engage in self doubt, religion doubt. But indeed stopping before finding all the possible paths is a lazy thing to do.

If there is no possible explanation, I will admit it, in both ways -as I said- the burden would vanish.

Quote:This too is admirable. There are many evolutionary biologists who manage to be religious as well. Just beware the trap of embracing religion at the expense of reality, where the two may conflict.

Which many religious folks fell at, sadly many muslims scholars did the same & in many cases they provided false explanation.

---

(February 14, 2013 at 5:56 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:Religion is not what I want. It's a heavy burden on my back. I don't like the concept of hell, I don't like the concept of slavery to any deity.

I don't like those things, either.

What you should ask yourself is, why are you jumping through so many hoops for it? Why defend something when it is both something you wish was not true and something which is almost certainly not true, regardless of your wishes? You justify your beliefs in precisely the same ways as adherents to many other religions, and there is nothing concrete which makes a single one of them any more likely to be true compared to any other.

If there is a god, or gods, in this universe, chances are extremely high that none of them that we worship are the correct ones. Therefore, the fates of everyone here are going to be the same, no matter what. Might as well let all that shit go and enjoy a life of freedom.

The problem is the concept of 1)god himself, 2)who are we, 3)why we're here & 4)what's next ?

on those four points, 2 of them make total sense to me & compose a broken chain- but the fourth point is the problem along with the second.

Because I have to understood concepts in my head, that religion isn't totally unbelievable. There is a chance for that believe to be perfect just if the missing links were connected.

That's my main reason. Which is what I do all the time, I always keep a believe if it has many reasonable points.

(February 13, 2013 at 5:43 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: I've been reading many topics on this site and time and time again, atheists like to speak of "proof" and "reason".

The only problem with this is that God is above these things.

_________


So you say - but without proof of existence - HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT as well?

THe claim is that a god does actual things for earth people - and if that is true - than those things should be able to be determined.

But when studied - scientifically with statistically significant numbers- random chance and acts of god get equal ratings - at best - and often chance does better than gods do.


IT is wonderful that these religious MYTHS were made up in ancient times.
BUT they had no reality beyond the human creation of the stories then - and are no different today

(February 14, 2013 at 11:18 am)AtlasS Wrote: I just say what I think is the most logical thing to my mind .

The problem with logic is that it is only as good as the person using it. If you don't have all the parameters, your logic is flawed. It might seem that you have come to a good conclusion, but if you're missing vital information, the conclusion you'll come to is not the right one.

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: one of the core elements in religion is faith. If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

I think I speak for most of the 'unfaithful' here, we don't want to believe, we want to know. There is no glory in the competition of who is the most deluded and willing to alter their lives for something that 'cannot be known' and isn't even proven to exist. No thank you, faith is a silly reason to stay ignorant.

(February 16, 2013 at 3:39 am)Kayenneh Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: one of the core elements in religion is faith. If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

I think I speak for most of the 'unfaithful' here, we don't want to believe, we want to know. There is no glory in the competition of who is the most deluded and willing to alter their lives for something that 'cannot be known' and isn't even proven to exist. No thank you, faith is a silly reason to stay ignorant.

"Ignorant" can work both ways here/

(February 16, 2013 at 1:40 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote:

(February 16, 2013 at 3:39 am)Kayenneh Wrote: I think I speak for most of the 'unfaithful' here, we don't want to believe, we want to know. There is no glory in the competition of who is the most deluded and willing to alter their lives for something that 'cannot be known' and isn't even proven to exist. No thank you, faith is a silly reason to stay ignorant.

"Ignorant" can work both ways here/

Sorry - but I disagree with you on that one. IT is not that we DON"T want to believe. IT is that there is NO reason why we should believe.

IT is XTIANS who do not want to believe that a god does not exist - because their beliefs have been forced into them as reality.

However - for those who HAVE NO BELIEF - it is because there has never been given any real reason to do so.

IF I want to know which religion is wrong - all I need do is ask theists -
THey will give you lots of real reasons why every religion is wrong.

If you ask xtians - they will eliminate ALL xtian religions as being wrong.


None are left to believe in.

(February 17, 2013 at 11:24 am)ThomM Wrote: Sorry - but I disagree with you on that one. IT is not that we DON"T want to believe. IT is that there is NO reason why we should believe.

You have no reason because you don't want to accept any reason.

(February 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote:

(February 17, 2013 at 11:24 am)ThomM Wrote: Sorry - but I disagree with you on that one. IT is not that we DON"T want to believe. IT is that there is NO reason why we should believe.

You have no reason because you don't want to accept any reason.

The trouble is, unsubstantiated claims do not equal reason.

"I'm a reasonable man. I'll accept a good reason; I'll accept a bad reason. I'll accept any damn reason at all."
-- Vila Restal

Give us something, anything, to examine and I promise you we will give it full and frank consideration. Blustering that we simply won't accept any reason is not only untrue, unreasonable and condescending, it's also a pretty revealing clue that you don't actually have a reason.

The main issue is we don't believe in the supernatural, seeing as we're naturalists. You would have to believe in the supernatural before any religion even becomes viable. Some people believe in supernatural forces active in the world and some people don't, there's no reasoning beyond that.