(February 26, 2013 at 12:27 am)ThomM Wrote: So - in Xtianity - the creator god is the source of all evil and cannot be ALL good - ALL just - ALL fair - and lots of others.

How do you justify this kind of statement without some reference to draw your conclusions about what is good and what is evil. Perhaps you could define evil without making reference to any specific examples, like "burning the inner thighs of virgins". (-50 morality points)

Drich, I do wish you would stop avoiding questions, and just answer me in the most obliging, concise manner possible. Telling me to do something that the bible says to do (which incidentally I've tried. I was a christian and tried it out before deciding not to believe it) does not in any way tell me the characteristics of your god. Unless you're trying to imply that the characteristics of your god are to be found in the bible, which right there means that I can stop looking right now, since that's the answer.

The god of the bible is easily refutable, and even if it does exist, it's a damn monster if the bible is to be believed, and it beggars belief that you or anyone else would ally yourself to it. It's a despicable, malevolent tyrant that threatens humanity with a punishment worse than death, and tries to bribe us to love it with one of the most ridiculous means of communicating its intentions I've ever heard of.

I'm looking for your god. Asking me what I'm looking for after explaining this is, I hope you understand, a little aggravating. If the best means of communicating its features to me is "do what this bible passage says", then I'm going to have to first ask why int he world I should take the bible seriously.

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(February 26, 2013 at 9:01 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 12:27 am)ThomM Wrote: So - in Xtianity - the creator god is the source of all evil and cannot be ALL good - ALL just - ALL fair - and lots of others.

How do you justify this kind of statement without some reference to draw your conclusions about what is good and what is evil. Perhaps you could define evil without making reference to any specific examples, like "burning the inner thighs of virgins". (-50 morality points)

Well, consider that if everything comes from god, since he is the creator, then the concept of sin and evil was also created by him, apparently with purpose and design. Anything that creates evil, has to be in some sense evil itself. If your god is good, he cannot create evil, certainly. Therefore he must be at least part evil in order to create evil.

(February 26, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: This whole A/S/K thing is nothing more than a twisted way of making the believer lose another bolt of rationality. As a hypothetical believer, I could be so desperate for a personal revelation that I convince myself that after A/S/King the sudden wind blowing outside my room is the answer and I'll shoehorn my own meaning (derived from my subconscious desires) into what God supposedly said to me in answer to A/S/King, because you know, God speaks in such mysterious ways that we have the task of decyphering it everytime.

A/S/K is fraudulent and false advertising. It cannot work for anyone who is in a position of ignorance of God or incredulous about him. You cannot even begin the process until you make six huge, incredible assumptions:

1. God exists.
2. God is a personal God.
3. All other Gods are false.
4. Jesus existed.
5. Jesus died for your sins.
6. The Bible is the infallible word of God (how can you trust the verses which allegedly instruct you how to A/S/K if you doubt the book's veracity?)

By the time you've gotten to the point where you can make yourself even begin to A/S/K, you've already padlocked all the doors in your mind which can ever lead you to doubt that you're going to get precisely the answer you expect. A/S/K is nothing more than convoluted mental masturbation.

(February 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: This whole A/S/K thing is nothing more than a twisted way of making the believer lose another bolt of rationality. As a hypothetical believer, I could be so desperate for a personal revelation that I convince myself that after A/S/King the sudden wind blowing outside my room is the answer and I'll shoehorn my own meaning (derived from my subconscious desires) into what God supposedly said to me in answer to A/S/King, because you know, God speaks in such mysterious ways that we have the task of decyphering it everytime.

A/S/K is fraudulent and false advertising. It cannot work for anyone who is in a position of ignorance of God or incredulous about him. You cannot even begin the process until you make six huge, incredible assumptions:

1. God exists.
2. God is a personal God.
3. All other Gods are false.
4. Jesus existed.
5. Jesus died for your sins.
6. The Bible is the infallible word of God (how can you trust the verses which allegedly instruct you how to A/S/K if you doubt the book's veracity?)

By the time you've gotten to the point where you can make yourself even begin to A/S/K, you've already padlocked all the doors in your mind which can ever lead you to doubt that you're going to get precisely the answer you expect. A/S/K is nothing more than convoluted mental masturbation.

Precisely!!! I wrote a thread on this explaining that since the believer's world view includes the things that you have listed, it is expected by them that God will speak to them. In other words: game, set & match because the believer is so incredibly biased with their perception of reality that they will fulfill their own needs & expectations, no matter the religion (hence why every religious person can tell you of their "experiences" with god(s) X(Y,Z,X1...)).

(February 26, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: This whole A/S/K thing is nothing more than a twisted way of making the believer lose another bolt of rationality. As a hypothetical believer, I could be so desperate for a personal revelation that I convince myself that after A/S/King the sudden wind blowing outside my room is the answer and I'll shoehorn my own meaning (derived from my subconscious desires) into what God supposedly said to me in answer to A/S/King, because you know, God speaks in such mysterious ways that we have the task of decyphering it everytime.

Without a doubt this happens alot especially when one thinks God is his own personal Genie. However when the wishes stop, and one Earnestly A/S/K God shows up and when He does there is not doubt who He is.

It's all apart of the process of maturing.

(February 26, 2013 at 11:32 pm)Drich Wrote: However when the wishes stop, and one Earnestly A/S/K God shows up and when He does there is not doubt who He is.

It's all apart of the process of maturing.

It sounds like you're trying to say that the A/S/K procedure can be unbiased, despite the predication that you already assume that the foundations of believing in the the christian god specifically have already been accepted.

(February 26, 2013 at 11:32 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: This whole A/S/K thing is nothing more than a twisted way of making the believer lose another bolt of rationality. As a hypothetical believer, I could be so desperate for a personal revelation that I convince myself that after A/S/King the sudden wind blowing outside my room is the answer and I'll shoehorn my own meaning (derived from my subconscious desires) into what God supposedly said to me in answer to A/S/King, because you know, God speaks in such mysterious ways that we have the task of decyphering it everytime.

Without a doubt this happens alot especially when one thinks God is his own personal Genie. However when the wishes stop, and one Earnestly A/S/K God shows up and when He does there is not doubt who He is.

It's all apart of the process of maturing.

When one is earnestly asking, one has already compromised one's reasoning faculties. Prayers are fulfilled through oneself hence why every religious person will tell me they have spoken with their god(s).

The con man wins again.

(February 26, 2013 at 9:29 pm)Question Mark Wrote: Drich, I do wish you would stop avoiding questions, and just answer me in the most obliging, concise manner possible. Telling me to do something that the bible says to do (which incidentally I've tried.

actually no you haven't, for the parable in Luke 11 does not have an end date. It's a do/doing process, there is no 'try.'

Quote:I was a christian and tried it out before deciding not to believe it) does not in any way tell me the characteristics of your god. Unless you're trying to imply that the characteristics of your god are to be found in the bible, which right there means that I can stop looking right now, since that's the answer.

Did i miss a post? when did we start talking about the Characteristics of God? At last check we were speaking about 'proof.'

Quote:The god of the bible is easily refutable,

Do you know how many of your silent peers thought the same thing? Ultimatly one has to rewrite the God of the bible in order to refute Him or simply attack and dismiss those who defend him.

Quote: and even if it does exist, it's a damn monster if the bible is to be believed, and it beggars belief that you or anyone else would ally yourself to it. It's a despicable, malevolent tyrant that threatens humanity with a punishment worse than death, and tries to bribe us to love it with one of the most ridiculous means of communicating its intentions I've ever heard of.

It all boils down to choice. The fact that you have chosen differently than I have means little to nothing to me. I am only here to give clarity and understanding to those who seek it. If you want to see God as a monster then again that is your choice. However if you want to take an honest look, then I can show you where to stand. Otherwise know in your deepest heart of hearts I do not care how you've make up your mind.
My only concern is to provide you with an oppertunity to know what God has left for you to understand.

Quote:I'm looking for your god. Asking me what I'm looking for after explaining this is, I hope you understand, a little aggravating.

Then A/S/K for Him as Luke 11 tells you to do. Don't add anything don't take anything away. Just do as God instructs and God will show up. the more faithful you are to what He has given you, the more you will see of Him. What better 'proof' of God is there than God Himself?

Quote: If the best means of communicating its features to me is "do what this bible passage says", then I'm going to have to first ask why int he world I should take the bible seriously.

See you above quoted passage note the "I'm Looking for your God" part.

We are told we are to humble ourselves to God, and He will lift you up. For you it seems humbling yourself means yeilding to the authority of the bible.

Drich Wrote:actually no you haven't, for the parable in Luke 11 does not have an end date. It's a do/doing process, there is no 'try.'

Quote:Then A/S/K for Him as Luke 11 tells you to do. Don't add anything don't take anything away. Just do as God instructs and God will show up. the more faithful you are to what He has given you, the more you will see of Him. What better 'proof' of God is there than God Himself?

The above is the perfect demonstration of how twisted A/S/K is. It's no more different to the brainwashing in 1984:

Torturer: what's 2 + 2?
Victim: 4!
*torture*
T: what's 2 + 2?!
V: FOUR!!
*torture*
...
T: what's 2 + 2??
V: what do you want it to be?

Christian: I will A/S/K
*nothing happens*
*irritation/desperation setting in*
C: God, I'm A/S/King!
*nothing*
*irritation/desperation getting stronger*
C: A/S/K, A/S/K, A/S/K!!!!
C: there it is! That warm feeling!

Self-fulfillment never fails when faith takes over reason.

(February 26, 2013 at 11:00 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm)Ryantology Wrote: A/S/K is fraudulent and false advertising. It cannot work for anyone who is in a position of ignorance of God or incredulous about him. You cannot even begin the process until you make six huge, incredible assumptions:

1. God exists.
2. God is a personal God.
3. All other Gods are false.
4. Jesus existed.
5. Jesus died for your sins.
6. The Bible is the infallible word of God (how can you trust the verses which allegedly instruct you how to A/S/K if you doubt the book's veracity?)

By the time you've gotten to the point where you can make yourself even begin to A/S/K, you've already padlocked all the doors in your mind which can ever lead you to doubt that you're going to get precisely the answer you expect. A/S/K is nothing more than convoluted mental masturbation.

Precisely!!! I wrote a thread on this explaining that since the believer's world view includes the things that you have listed, it is expected by them that God will speak to them. In other words: game, set & match because the believer is so incredibly biased with their perception of reality that they will fulfill their own needs & expectations, no matter the religion (hence why every religious person can tell you of their "experiences" with god(s) X(Y,Z,X1...)).

Now take another step back and follow your thought to it's conclusion.. Months tick by, maybe even years, and at some point the 'believer' (maybe after after loosing the girl he wanted to someone elses even after he had struck a deal with his idea of God) concludes he has been behind his own experience of god all along. Then what happpens? Then the disgruntled misotheists takes the name Atheist because 'Miso/hate' and intollerance is a soceitial sin that is not easily over come. Starts an anti God Campaign (unknowingly this is most likly the first bit of honest 'seeking' the Miso, has ever done.) Unfortunatly pride keeps the Miso from the Ask/Knock part because of "ALL" the "Christian things" he did in the past.

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(February 26, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Question Mark Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 11:32 pm)Drich Wrote: However when the wishes stop, and one Earnestly A/S/K God shows up and when He does there is not doubt who He is.

It's all apart of the process of maturing.

It sounds like you're trying to say that the A/S/K procedure can be unbiased, despite the predication that you already assume that the foundations of believing in the the christian god specifically have already been accepted.

Do you have a 6th grade version of your post you would like to share?

---

(February 27, 2013 at 12:02 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

Drich Wrote:actually no you haven't, for the parable in Luke 11 does not have an end date. It's a do/doing process, there is no 'try.'

Quote:Then A/S/K for Him as Luke 11 tells you to do. Don't add anything don't take anything away. Just do as God instructs and God will show up. the more faithful you are to what He has given you, the more you will see of Him. What better 'proof' of God is there than God Himself?

The above is the perfect demonstration of how twisted A/S/K is. It's no more different to the brainwashing in 1984:

Torturer: what's 2 + 2?
Victim: 4!
*torture*
T: what's 2 + 2?!
V: FOUR!!
*torture*
...
T: what's 2 + 2??
V: what do you want it to be?

Christian: I will A/S/K
*nothing happens*
*irritation/desperation setting in*
C: God, I'm A/S/King!
*nothing*
*irritation/desperation getting stronger*
C: A/S/K, A/S/K, A/S/K!!!!
C: there it is! That warm feeling!

Self-fulfillment never fails when faith takes over reason.

Didn't I already shoot this 1984 A/s/k thing down already? I think it had something to do with Chocolate last time..