(March 1, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 1, 2013 at 6:28 am)rexbeccarox Wrote:

Sorry... You're the one who took the loan? Am I missing something?

What a world, what a world...

It used to be a big deal to take a loan. One would only ever take a loan if he Knew that without doubt he could pay it back. To take the risk of a 25K loan on something like a new business was beyond a leap of faith. especially when neither one of us really knew anything about how to run a business.

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(March 1, 2013 at 10:24 am)Question Mark Wrote: I have made the effort.

Without doubt you made a strong 'religious' effort. Now ask yourself did your 'religious effort' match what Christ told us to do?

Quote:Do you think I just up and decided one day "Oh believing in god is just too much trouble, I'm gonna be an atheist".
Truth is a rather important thing in my opinion.

Do you believe it any less important to me?

Quote:And I'm still mad at you by the way.

so is 99% of everyone else on this website.

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(March 1, 2013 at 10:36 am)Esquilax Wrote: Why are we obligated to go looking for proof of something we don't believe in?

Your not, that is why I asked would you..
You are only obligated if you want to know God.

Quote:If your case is so strong, should you not be able to prove it to us? If something is real, it doesn't need faith to sustain it.

Again Absolutly no faith is needed to sustain a relationship with God.

Only the Faith of a Mustard seed is needed to establish a connection with God. Once you can expend this tiny amount of faith, God will show up. When He does faith will no longer be needed.

I don't know what the hell Christ wants, I've never met the bloke, and all the evidence points to the fact that what's int he bible was certainly not written by him, but some 60 years at least after he supposedly died. So no, I don't know what Christ wants, it'd be nice if he'd push up the schedule for the battle of Armagedon so I can just go talk to him about it when he comes to defeat the anti-christ.

(Okay that last bit was a joke)

Maybe others are annoyed at you, but I was really quite angry. I'd gone out of my way to do as you instructed me to, and all you could do to account for it was to tell me I was being disingenuous.
That put me a little beyond trivial annoyance, as you might imagine.

Have you ever read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown?

(March 1, 2013 at 3:36 pm)Question Mark Wrote: Maybe others are annoyed at you, but I was really quite angry. I'd gone out of my way to do as you instructed me to, and all you could do to account for it was to tell me I was being disingenuous.

God seeks Humility from those who wish to know Him. A humble man submits to what God asks of Him. If God asks us to "X,Y,Z" Then we must X,Y,Z. Not X and Y or X and Z. For even if we are sincere, we in the end did not do what God has asked.

Quote:That put me a little beyond trivial annoyance, as you might imagine.

I am not trying to provoke anyone to wrath, but at the same time I have to be faithful to what I am given over to speak on.

Quote:Have you ever read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown?

no.

(March 1, 2013 at 4:07 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Have you ever read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown?

no.

There's an interesting back story to a character in that book, a bloke called Max Kholer.
As a boy, he was extremely ill with a life-threatening disease, a disease that put him in extreme levels of fiery pain for days on end. Doctors begged the parents to be allowed to give him medicine that would save his life, but his parents refused, instead praying to god to save their son, and beseeching Max to pray as well.
Max did so, continually begging and praying over the course of days for god to speak to him, promising anything, &c., you get the idea I think.

After a few days, one doctor who'd stayed even after being dismissed, secretly gave him an injection that cured him over an afternoon, unbeknownst to the parents. The parents proclaimed it a miracle from god, except for one particular. The disease had ravaged Max's body quite badly before he had been cured, and left him paralyzed.
The parents were confused, sure that they had prayed enough, been contrite, and humble in their pleading for divine help, and so went to a local high ranking priest for answers.

The priest told them that god was punishing Max for not having enough faith.


Now I'm not trying to attack religion with this example, although in the story this was what Max himself was trying to do, I think. It's a fictional example after all.
My point with this story is a question I'd like to put to you:

How do you suppose that the priest came to the conclusion that Max had not been faithful enough?

(March 1, 2013 at 4:27 pm)Question Mark Wrote:

(March 1, 2013 at 4:07 pm)Drich Wrote: no.

There's an interesting back story to a character in that book, a bloke called Max Kholer.
As a boy, he was extremely ill with a life-threatening disease, a disease that put him in extreme levels of fiery pain for days on end. Doctors begged the parents to be allowed to give him medicine that would save his life, but his parents refused, instead praying to god to save their son, and beseeching Max to pray as well.
Max did so, continually begging and praying over the course of days for god to speak to him, promising anything, &c., you get the idea I think.

After a few days, one doctor who'd stayed even after being dismissed, secretly gave him an injection that cured him over an afternoon, unbeknownst to the parents. The parents proclaimed it a miracle from god, except for one particular. The disease had ravaged Max's body quite badly before he had been cured, and left him paralyzed.
The parents were confused, sure that they had prayed enough, been contrite, and humble in their pleading for divine help, and so went to a local high ranking priest for answers.

The priest told them that god was punishing Max for not having enough faith.


Now I'm not trying to attack religion with this example, although in the story this was what Max himself was trying to do, I think. It's a fictional example after all.
My point with this story is a question I'd like to put to you:

How do you suppose that the priest came to the conclusion that Max had not been faithful enough?

I don't know.

For a humble man would have taken the medcine.

Only a proud ASS would demand God to work in one specific way.

I am wrong for holding the Bible in a historical perspective and showing that it tells lies...
...and once I establish a connection with God I will know that the bible is true.

And then I can discard any history and accept the truth that the Bible is true because my faulty human mind has decreed that it is true despite any evidence in the contrary because God told me.

Ok. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Faith is the way that people severe there connection with the world around them and become united to the seed of the revelation of God. When people believe in God, it is almost as if all the other authorities and definitions of knowing and understanding and all the other competing views give way to the reality of the holy light of God, which challenges the morality of the world around and gives a new center in Jesus Christ.

Without faith, people are just reasoning and reasoning back and forth, debating about the right way to go, with no authority. When people have faith, it is like they become wed to God, they become one, their will is unified with God, if it was through peoples reason, there would be no marriage, it would be back and forth, no commitment. With faith, there is commitment, people become committed to doing good for the rest of their life and not doing wrong. To repent is to say that I will never do wrong, it is not necessary to have some sort of intellectual proof of changing from an evil person to a good person, you just change.

And faith and reason rely upon each other and establish each other, like a man seeing his wife and knowing her is linked to a man's covenant of marriage. Reason illuminates faith, it is intoxicating, and like sexuality, is addictive and potentially destructive and deeply linked to pride and the expression of ones will or ones seed.

The marriage of faith and reason is like the combination of the covenant of marriage and sexuality. Sexuality illuminates and gives a physical union to the spiritual, permanent union of marriage, which cannot be changed. So the believer puts his absolute trust in God, and cuts a covenant and says no more will I be a wicked person, instead I will be a follower of Christ. From this point on, reason can guide the person and illuminate his choice to do good, but it can never replace good with evil.

(March 2, 2013 at 6:55 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Probably none of you atheists will have the attention span to actually wrap your minds around this, you will just reply with a masturbation joke, but I will post it anyways:

Faith is the way that people severe there connection with the world around them and become united to the seed of the revelation of God. When people believe in God, it is almost as if all the other authorities and definitions of knowing and understanding and all the other competing views give way to the reality of the holy light of God, which challenges the morality of the world around and gives a new center in Jesus Christ.

Without faith, people are just reasoning and reasoning back and forth, debating about the right way to go, with no authority. When people have faith, it is like they become wed to God, they become one, their will is unified with God, if it was through peoples reason, there would be no marriage, it would be back and forth, no commitment. With faith, there is commitment, people become committed to doing good for the rest of their life and not doing wrong. To repent is to say that I will never do wrong, it is not necessary to have some sort of intellectual proof of changing from an evil person to a good person, you just change.

And faith and reason rely upon each other and establish each other, like a man seeing his wife and knowing her is linked to a man's covenant of marriage. Reason illuminates faith, it is intoxicating, and like sexuality, is addictive and potentially destructive and deeply linked to pride and the expression of ones will or ones seed.

The marriage of faith and reason is like the combination of the covenant of marriage and sexuality. Sexuality illuminates and gives a physical union to the spiritual, permanent union of marriage, which cannot be changed. So the believer puts his absolute trust in God, and cuts a covenant and says no more will I be a wicked person, instead I will be a follower of Christ. From this point on, reason can guide the person and illuminate his choice to do good, but it can never replace good with evil.

Hmmm...I told myself I would stay away from this forum, but I guess I am going to be back.

I previously use to be Shiite Muslim, and I had "mystic" visions of the 12 Imams, only that it was psychosis.

What I realized now, the vision of the "the good tree", the saints, the believers, Mohammad, and Ali, was my vision of all that is beautiful and good and praiseworthy.

Only that I've realized now much of that projection was mix of falsehood and truth, good and evil.

There is a lot of good in the Bible and the character portrayed as Jesus, and in Yahweh, and so you focus on that.

There is also a lot of disgrace and dishonor in society and what is high is being made low and what is low is being made high.

So you feel sticking to Jesus is a way to safeguard yourself against the evils out there or that it gives you a fundamental distinguisher (Quran is also called Al-Furqan (the distinquisher)).

And it's true, you might feel lost...not knowing...but let the doubts have their way, let them break you, even if you question all foundations, whether praise is real or a delusion, etc...I think if you are honest in your approach, you will be able to listen to the wisdom of your heart, the honest praise and condemnation of your soul, the honest view of morals you truly have.

Honesty is the sword of the soul.

And you don't have to worship a being to believe in a soul. In other words Deism is not the only answer outside religion and naturalism.

You can believe in a Creator, supernatural world, etc, without worship or subjugating yourself to any being.

You can take the Creator as a kind guide, instead of a dictator authority king, and that even he is bound by a moral code that he cannot break, and is teaching us in midst of a battle, revealing he is our weapon.

You can see him as way above you, or you can realize he hasn't struggled with evil and good, and had to over power his will to find the praiseworthy path, but out of kindness has let humans chose who they want to be, which is a greater honor.

We are not separate from the source, he lives in us, and I agree faith does change your outlook on life.

It's just that I think the Source rather have us soul search and battle, then simply submit to authority and dogma.

My two cents.

(March 2, 2013 at 6:55 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Probably none of you atheists will have the attention span to actually wrap your minds around this, you will just reply with a masturbation joke, but I will post it anyways:

Faith is the way that people severe there connection with the world around them and become united to the seed of the revelation of God. When people believe in God, it is almost as if all the other authorities and definitions of knowing and understanding and all the other competing views give way to the reality of the holy light of God, which challenges the morality of the world around and gives a new center in Jesus Christ.

Without faith, people are just reasoning and reasoning back and forth, debating about the right way to go, with no authority. When people have faith, it is like they become wed to God, they become one, their will is unified with God, if it was through peoples reason, there would be no marriage, it would be back and forth, no commitment. With faith, there is commitment, people become committed to doing good for the rest of their life and not doing wrong. To repent is to say that I will never do wrong, it is not necessary to have some sort of intellectual proof of changing from an evil person to a good person, you just change.

And faith and reason rely upon each other and establish each other, like a man seeing his wife and knowing her is linked to a man's covenant of marriage. Reason illuminates faith, it is intoxicating, and like sexuality, is addictive and potentially destructive and deeply linked to pride and the expression of ones will or ones seed.

The marriage of faith and reason is like the combination of the covenant of marriage and sexuality. Sexuality illuminates and gives a physical union to the spiritual, permanent union of marriage, which cannot be changed. So the believer puts his absolute trust in God, and cuts a covenant and says no more will I be a wicked person, instead I will be a follower of Christ. From this point on, reason can guide the person and illuminate his choice to do good, but it can never replace good with evil.

And you have evidence for all of this, I assume? You have evidence that you can provide that supports your assertion that faith is superior to thinking, in deciding what's best for humanity, and that your god approves of the method?

Also, I'd just like to say for the part at the beginning of your comment, just a little thing. Fuck you.
If you're going to address someone, the first thing out of your mouth should not be aspersions cast upon their intellectual integrity and maturity. So grow up, and learn some damn respect for other people before you decide to be a juvenile prick, okay?

(March 2, 2013 at 7:27 pm)Question Mark Wrote:

(March 2, 2013 at 6:55 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Probably none of you atheists will have the attention span to actually wrap your minds around this, you will just reply with a masturbation joke, but I will post it anyways:

Faith is the way that people severe there connection with the world around them and become united to the seed of the revelation of God. When people believe in God, it is almost as if all the other authorities and definitions of knowing and understanding and all the other competing views give way to the reality of the holy light of God, which challenges the morality of the world around and gives a new center in Jesus Christ.

Without faith, people are just reasoning and reasoning back and forth, debating about the right way to go, with no authority. When people have faith, it is like they become wed to God, they become one, their will is unified with God, if it was through peoples reason, there would be no marriage, it would be back and forth, no commitment. With faith, there is commitment, people become committed to doing good for the rest of their life and not doing wrong. To repent is to say that I will never do wrong, it is not necessary to have some sort of intellectual proof of changing from an evil person to a good person, you just change.

And faith and reason rely upon each other and establish each other, like a man seeing his wife and knowing her is linked to a man's covenant of marriage. Reason illuminates faith, it is intoxicating, and like sexuality, is addictive and potentially destructive and deeply linked to pride and the expression of ones will or ones seed.

The marriage of faith and reason is like the combination of the covenant of marriage and sexuality. Sexuality illuminates and gives a physical union to the spiritual, permanent union of marriage, which cannot be changed. So the believer puts his absolute trust in God, and cuts a covenant and says no more will I be a wicked person, instead I will be a follower of Christ. From this point on, reason can guide the person and illuminate his choice to do good, but it can never replace good with evil.

And you have evidence for all of this, I assume? You have evidence that you can provide that supports your assertion that faith is superior to thinking, in deciding what's best for humanity, and that your god approves of the method?

Also, I'd just like to say for the part at the beginning of your comment, just a little thing. Fuck you.
If you're going to address someone, the first thing out of your mouth should not be aspersions cast upon their intellectual integrity and maturity. So grow up, and learn some damn respect for other people before you decide to be a juvenile prick, okay?

Well, the last time I posted that is what I got, a bunch of jokes about masturbation (you can find the thread if you want, it is in the philosophy forum).

I am sorry if you did not deserve it, rebuke your atheist friends the next time they treat people with disrespect. I removed the original message because it is a different thread.


The evidence is my experience. My lack of moral authority caused me to have the need to seek out what the nature of that authority was. I saw that perhaps God may reveal himself in the ancient traditions. I did not know, but I believed that maybe God would. And as I sought God more and more and more I realized more and more that he was real.

Necessarily, if thinking is the source of morality, and is indeterminate, so will morality be indeterminate.

There is no way to say that thinking is superior to anything else, there are so many varieties of thinking and so many movements, how can you possibly generalize about all of them?

Religious faith is a test to see whether people value some sense of truth more than there own appreciation of the nature of truth. Faith is like you are walking toward what may give you the answer, as you get closer and closer, you meet him. I have seen so many miracles and so many displays of the power of God. It starts through realizing that there must be more than your opinions and what you want.

(March 2, 2013 at 7:44 pm)jstrodel Wrote:

(March 2, 2013 at 7:27 pm)Question Mark Wrote: And you have evidence for all of this, I assume? You have evidence that you can provide that supports your assertion that faith is superior to thinking, in deciding what's best for humanity, and that your god approves of the method?

Also, I'd just like to say for the part at the beginning of your comment, just a little thing. Fuck you.
If you're going to address someone, the first thing out of your mouth should not be aspersions cast upon their intellectual integrity and maturity. So grow up, and learn some damn respect for other people before you decide to be a juvenile prick, okay?

Well, the last time I posted that is what I got, a bunch of jokes about masturbation (you can find the thread if you want, it is in the philosophy forum).

I am sorry if you did not deserve it, rebuke your atheist friends the next time they treat people with disrespect. I removed the original message because it is a different thread.


The evidence is my experience. My lack of moral authority caused me to have the need to seek out what the nature of that authority was. I saw that perhaps God may reveal himself in the ancient traditions. I did not know, but I believed that maybe God would. And as I sought God more and more and more I realized more and more that he was real.

Necessarily, if thinking is the source of morality, and is indeterminate, so will morality be indeterminate.

There is no way to say that thinking is superior to anything else, there are so many varieties of thinking and so many movements, how can you possibly generalize about all of them?

Religious faith is a test to see whether people value some sense of truth more than there own appreciation of the nature of truth. Faith is like you are walking toward what may give you the answer, as you get closer and closer, you meet him. I have seen so many miracles and so many displays of the power of God. It starts through realizing that there must be more than your opinions and what you want.

And for those who tried faith, and found nothing? When faith is proven demonstrably faulty?
If you experienced something, it's not for me to say one way or the other if you did or didn't, but that experience happened to you, and no one else is justified in believing in something that happened to you.

For instance, what constitutes a miracle for you? These things you've seen, these supposed instances of god's power. What happened?