Quote:This was about the point where I stopped taking you seriously at all. You're actually equating slavery with being paid less than $25 an hour?

You got a real objection or just a simple DOOD FUCKING THINK FOR YOURSELF ALREADY?

Put your objection in formal logic. Why is slavery intrinsically evil but being paid less than $25 an hour morally neutral? What if there is a famine and you will die if you aren't sold into slavery?

You have the mind of a shopkeeper. You can't recognize the nuance of my argument of follow its logic, you attack a straw-man with dirty, filthy cultural prejudice (yuck, political propaganda) that you consider critical thinking.

Yes, a straw-man. There's one little problem, kiddo: You set the straw-man up yourself:

Quote:You are like the people that think it is immoral to have a minimum wage below $25 dollars. It is immoral to have the minimum wage below $25 dollars, otherwise people cannot own a house with two stories. Then they will add insult to injury and demand that there is a natural human right to have a minimum wage set at $25 dollars an hour.

Who says this, exactly? You're the one saying that there are people out there saying this, and you're attacking them, making it seem like you refuted something but you didn't. That is text-book straw-man fallacy. Also, I never said anything about "DOOD LEARN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF." My objection was quite simple: "Get the fuck out." Do learn what the fuck you're talking about before you say something, it'll help you look like less of an imbecile. And you clearly need lots of help with that.

You want to know why I have no intention of refuting anything you say? Because you've already shown that nothing you say has any value. It's fallacy on top of fallacy, with a healthy helping of irrationality and appeals to authority endlessly. You are incapable of debate or discussion, ergo not worth my time.

I am under no illusions that people as deluded as you can be reasoned with. So I won't waste my time to do much more than belittle you for being the dumb shit you are, because that is all that you are worth. Don't like it? Then start thinking with some semblance of rationality.

Now, to humor you, and mostly just to humiliate your pathetic intellect...

[Why is slavery bad?

Quote:Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.

Treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.

Treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.
Treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.
Treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.

Did it get through your thick skull, there?

Human beings are not property. They are not inanimate objects. They are organic creatures capable of self determination. To forcefully deprive them of this self-determination is barbaric in the extreme.

Also in your worthless little hypothetical scenario, if there was some situation where it was die of hunger or be a slave, I'd rather die of hunger, because at least it would be on my own terms, as it ought to be. What the fuck would the point of living be if it was just to work hard labor for some bread? I'm sure that sort of thing appeals to you, what with you and those like you enjoying the feeling of being on your knees bowing subserviently but for the rest of us we see what a bunch of tools you are. In fact, I'd rather reject these two options, and find a way to feed myself. I'm not some helpless little suburban Christian brat who has everything handed to them, I've already lived through a life where it was "find a way to eat or die," and I did it for years, and I did it admirably. That's the problem with YOU people: Linear thinking, everything in black and white, no shades of grey, no alternatives. Hate to tell you, buddy, but the world is NOT shades of black and white, and there are ALWAYS practical alternatives if you're intelligent enough to find them. If you are not, well, sucks to be you, but that's not my problem, now is it.

Now, back to the differences; the difference is that work is intrinsically valued depending on the station in which you work, what you know, what you can apply, and what the value of your job really is worth to your employer. If you are just making sandwiches for a living, like me, you're only gonna get paid barely more than minimum wage, you know why? Because just about ANYONE can make a sandwich. Furthering this argument is not possible because you are arguing non-sequiturs; slavery as compared to minimum wage employment is like arguing that trees aren't a plant because sand is not dirt.

Get your shit together and come up with a valid argument or fuck off. Doesn't matter to me.

(March 7, 2013 at 2:15 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Also in your worthless little hypothetical scenario, if there was some situation where it was die of hunger or be a slave, I'd rather die of hunger, because at least it would be on my own terms, as it ought to be. What the fuck would the point of living be if it was just to work hard labor for some bread?

Very convincing. You have proved that slavery is, absolutely, in all cases, the worst possible option. So anyone who disagrees with you and would rather live and be a slave then die of hunger is obviously TOO STUPID to realize that there is some sort of moral imperative to see life exactly the way you do
So much for those Christians who see things "WAY TOO MUCH IN BLACK AND WHITE".

I absolutely trust you, with your Penn Gillete level logic to assess the very difficult question historically if outlawing slavery would have actually improved living conditions for a world often plagued with famine and war where the threat of insurgent warfare would necessitate some sort of serious response to what to do with conquered people. I can trust that the answer you give, in all caps, would assess the myriad of complex economic and political issues that surround the issue of slavery. It would be based the sound principle of USING REASON YOU DUMB FUCK.

L.O.L. You wouldn't know what the definition of reason was if I smacked you in the face with a dictionary opened to the page "reason" is on with highlighter liberally applied all over it. It could literally be applied to your face at full force and it would not register. I tear your argument apart and you revert to hypothetical vagueries that apply to nothing at all and exist only in your own, very-empty head. No, do go on about the principles of reasoning! Why don't you tell me I just committed another fallacy! You could say...OH, I KNOW! You could say I made an appeals to authority! Or special pleading! You know, everything you've already committed that I haven't! I mean you already went with straw-man when none was there! Do go on! I'm actually laughing uproariously right now at how typical your reaction is to every other theist I've schooled so thoroughly; "quick! Pretend to know what I'm talking about by throwing big words around! That'll really throw them off!"

Except you don't. And I haven't been. You're about as transparent as saran wrap. Go back to high school. Do some learning. I make sandwiches for a living and I'm smarter than you, it seems. Think about that for...the rest of your life.

Deuteronomy 20:14, 15 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Deuteronomy 25:11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Deuteronomy 28: 30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her.

Deuteronomy 22: 13 to 19 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.



I'd keep going, but it's a lot of the same shit. A woman has to marry the rapist as compensation...wtf? Pay the father? wtf? If you do god wrong someone will rape your wife as a form of godly vengeance? What the fuck!? If no proof... dude! I'm never going back. Ever.

I really feel bad for Christians when these things are pointed out to them because they try so hard to prove to themselves that "that's not what it means", but inside they know it sucks. Leave them alone for a bit and they will be struggling with all kinds of doubts. If they're smart, they'll recover. If not, they'll go and talk to their leaders about this and their leaders will say, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," and, "Who are you to question the Lord?"

(March 7, 2013 at 3:02 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: L.O.L. You wouldn't know what the definition of reason was if I smacked you in the face with a dictionary opened to the page "reason" is on with highlighter liberally applied all over it. It could literally be applied to your face at full force and it would not register. I tear your argument apart and you revert to hypothetical vagueries that apply to nothing at all and exist only in your own, very-empty head. No, do go on about the principles of reasoning! Why don't you tell me I just committed another fallacy! You could say...OH, I KNOW! You could say I made an appeals to authority! Or special pleading! You know, everything you've already committed that I haven't! I mean you already went with straw-man when none was there! Do go on! I'm actually laughing uproariously right now at how typical your reaction is to every other theist I've schooled so thoroughly; "quick! Pretend to know what I'm talking about by throwing big words around! That'll really throw them off!"

Except you don't. And I haven't been. You're about as transparent as saran wrap. Go back to high school. Do some learning. I make sandwiches for a living and I'm smarter than you, it seems. Think about that for...the rest of your life.

Not a single argument there. I enjoy philosophical debate, I don't care for other kinds of disputation. You can be smarter than me, I really am not interested, I am only interested in defending the Bible from people that misunderstand the roots of the values they understand to be universal. Actually, the values are the values of the culture they belong to.

Slavery, like capitalism, has many unsavory aspects to it. But, just as there is no simple transition from slavery to modern economic organization, there is no simple transition from capitalism to a future organization. Maybe in the future there will be a way to replace capitalism, which is like slavery in many ways. People do not have a human right today to have the future benefits of a post-capitalist order just as people in the past do not have a human right to enjoy the benefits of capitalism. Obviously the economic order affects the values to some degree, what is moral is what is possible, people cannot have a human right to what cannot exist. There is no human right to venture capital investors. These things belong to certain cultures.

I am proud of my country for abolishing slavery, but I do not deify my countries laws, and I do not have an ugly nationalistic pride that makes me believe that my countries laws represent universal ethical norms. This is very arrogant and narrow minded. Ethics is a complicated thing.

No, no, no, Jursum [I'm calling you Jursum. This is a thing. It is there. Sorry. XD], you have it ALL wrong. See, it's all "out of context!" Never-mind that with the passages surrounding those that it is saying exactly what you think it is saying, thus meaning that even in context, it is the exact same thing. See, you're arguing with a religious person. Being told they are wrong elicits the same negative reaction as it does in all humans. See, that's human nature! The problem is, they believe this stuff with no foundation so when you pull the belief-rug out from under them they REALLY come crashing down hard.

And you know what? That's fine! That is A-OK! If they've dug themselves into the illogical, irrational rut that is fundamentalism, and they can't see anything opposing that belief without having a crisis of identity, and they keep to themselves? Well, that's just fine!

Except this dick decided to start making his beliefs known in an environment where his silly superstitious bronze age myths are unwanted.

Oh. Wait. Yeah. He DOES deserve to have the rug yanked out from under him. Ms. 10, please pardon my interruption.

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(March 7, 2013 at 3:12 am)jstrodel Wrote: Not a single argument there.

Wow, you have preternatural abilities to detect the obvious! That is VERY true, because it was a statement.

Congratulations, you finally got something right. Pat yourself on the back, huh?

lol I get it. I agree he deserves it (as did I at one point), but it doesn't take away that I feel sorry for all of them when it's going on. It hurts worse than a huge... oh wait, that's a whole other subject.

As a former Christian, though... there's no way those words were out of context. Sorry, but hellzzzz no.

Creed of Heresy, what is the point of talking about religion if it is not to exchange ideas? Do you just enjoy insulting people? My name is Joseph, I am 27.

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(March 7, 2013 at 3:03 am)jrsm_10 Wrote: harsh statements from scripture

I understand that you are offended by scripture, sometimes I read things in the Old Testament that offend me. Is there a way that you could put your objection in formal logic or something similar? The Old Testament of the Bible has many severe judgements against many people, men and women. It is not sexist or misogynistic, it affirms the worth of both male and female as you can see in Proverbs 31, in the great worth attached to motherhood in the Old Testament. There are female judges of Israel (Deborah).

What exactly is the nature of your objection? Is it possible that you can show logically why Christians should feel that verses that disagree with contemporary culture should be seen as evidence against understanding the reality of God?

I would be happy to write a length response to each verse, but it seems like you ignored the lengthy one that I already wrote. There is an explanation for every difficult verse in scripture, and many books devoted to this subject, but it takes time to understand the ancient context. It is not necessary to "explain away" difficult verses as there are good explanations, I have found many and had many revealed to me miraculously through signs and wonders.

A man sees a cute girl. He wants her. She is repulsed by him. He rapes her. He pays a 50 shekel fine and she is required to be his wife.

The guy ruins the other guys property, so he pays the 50 shekels to the father and he gets what he wanted in the first place without paying the normal higher fee for a virgin.

(Later Rabbinical decrees were added to eliminate this sort of loophole).

But that's ok, because God said so.

He also seemed to be cool with slavery. (Not to be confused with an eved ivri who is an indentured slave for a specific period of time. In fact, a father can sell his daughter into slavery and get a better bang for his buck that way). Non-Jews are slaves for life and can be treated however is deemed fit.

God was cool with that too.