(March 17, 2013 at 6:26 am)Dawud Wrote: You know what Germans - I've just realised you know so little about Islam and assume so much that it is just nonsense backstory that it is truly pointless talking to you.

I actualy read the quoran - and therefor know exactly what I reject about the quoran.

Show mewhere I "assume" things?

It is pointless answereing to you, because you kling on to the delusion of the "mayority of the good muslims" argument and ignore the statistics which show the opposite being true.

Quote:You will say the same of me I guess, in your arrogant way, but to be honest I have studied it for years from both Muslim and non-Muslim experts from the top education establishments in the UK and the Muslim world. You will not take anything on board that goes against this idea that Muslims can and are pro democracy, pro choice and generally not wanting to be unfair to women (most Muslim converts are women - and when I say women I mean string individuals able to make their own choices in life).

On political and social issues I am convinced by statistics and not by loose wishy washy statements about individual expiriences.

And the statistics clearly show that the mayority of muslims is not in favor of a pluralistic sociaty.

I dont believe that muslims are inharently undemocratic - that would be racist.

I believe that it is the muslim culture which should change to accepting pluralist secular culture.

And not pluralist secular culture which needs to addapt to totalitarian political islam.

Quote:But you just love your bogeyman story far to much - I just hope the common man here believes what the people with knowledge suggest - not spooked out hate preachers like yourself.

I have posted statistics proving my point - therefor - no bogyman.

I speak out against violent totalitarian islam which rejects democracy and pluralism - and you think you have been spoken to and have to defend yourself - which actualy says more about you.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/07...ration.pdf

My favourite from Edinburgh University:

http://www.britishcouncil.org/scotland-s...report.pdf

http://yonseijournal.files.wordpress.com...ration.pdf

And check the PEW forum as it is the most authoratative due to its most extensive and representative samples:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/isla...n-publics/

But you won't take these as authority cos your authority is your own faith that Muslims can't integrate and never will be able to

JUST like Jews were seen as incompatible with German nationalism - that was a lie that sucked people in too

---

As in past Global Attitudes surveys, publics in predominantly Muslim countries believe that democracy can work in their countries. Large and growing majorities in Morocco (83%), Lebanon (83%), Jordan (80%) and Indonesia (77%) — as well as pluralities in Turkey (48%) and Pakistan (43%) — say democracy can work well and is not just for the West.


Uh oh - looks like there are millions -MILLIONS- of Muslims who support democracy

Uh oh - time to admit you are wrong in your assumption that Muslims are against democracy.

Who are you gonna believe? Millions of Muslims or TGAC??

Or suggest they were lying to keep your faith stance plausible??

---

Uh.....

---

Oh...

---

Were they all lying then or are they not Muslims?

(March 17, 2013 at 5:33 am)Dawud Wrote: I expect you won't accept that a society can be so different - but that is what the evidence shows: a loving relationship of mutual respect that fit perfectly well.

Was this in response to Myelis' post? If so, are you saying that it was common in ancient times for men to select wives from among the very young, and to consummate those marriages with girls as young as nine? Or at least, that it was not unusual for them to do so?

What Im saying is that the relationship referred to was a healthy one that not even the harshest critic of Muhammad PBUH criticised as being in anyway 'wrong'

This I say, from the Hadith literature, is because this was within a society where men and women reached emotional maturity alongside sexual maturity.

By "critic" are you referring to religious or historical scholars, or some subset thereof? Surely there must be people who find the idea of a man taking a child as a wife, and a prepubescent girl as a sexual partner worthy of criticism.

And you are saying that in ancient times, boys and girls matured sexually and emotionally at such young ages? Six? Nine? I understand that in a world with short lifespans, people were less concerned with the morals of future societies and more concerned with avoiding extinction, as it were. And that this attitude, along with other attitudes about the value of women, motivated them to promote ideas that later societies would find repulsive. I know that Christians also use a form of "it was different back then" to justify attitudes and ideas that we find repulsive today. How does a modern-day Muslim view the issue of taking child brides?

(March 17, 2013 at 6:26 am)Dawud Wrote: You will not take anything on board that goes against this idea that Muslims can and are pro democracy, pro choice and generally not wanting to be unfair to women (most Muslim converts are women - and when I say women I mean string individuals able to make their own choices in life).

Can you name one muslim country where people like Richard Dawkins can easily express their views without being killed?

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)Dawud Wrote: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/07...ration.pdf

!
This is not a study and report of muslims attitude towards pluralism!
This is a study into how European countries are integrating muslims into their sociaties, and if these efforts are working.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)the report sais in it`s interduction Wrote: This report examines policies aimed at promoting integration, combating terrorism, and
countering violent extremism in five European countries with significant Muslim populations:
France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, and the United Kingdom. The report also evaluates the
role of the 27-member European Union (EU) in shaping European laws and policies related to
integration and counter-radicalization.

The report doesnt give any exact number to radicalisation amongst muslims in Europe, it simply lists and explains the recent efforts of european countries on how they attempt to integrate these population and helpp them to abide easier with european secular pluralist values.
This simply confirms the point that the integration of muslims into european sociaty has failed and that new efforts have to be undergone.
It does not rebuke the fact that through surveis it is known that alot of muslims disregard european values. As I have shown through links that I have posted and which you have ignored.
In the end, this study does nothing to disprove the claim that a big number of muslims within europe reject the very principles and values held up by the country they live in.

Quote:My favourite from Edinburgh University:

http://www.britishcouncil.org/scotland-s...report.pdf

This report explains the demographics and history behing muslim immigration into Europe in the past 50 years aswell as the change of public opinion towards muslims due to historic events is explained.
It also lists efforts by european countries to counter radicalisation and non integration.

Yet it doesnt deliver any numbers and statistics about the willingness of muslims to integrate let alone studies about muslim views.

So again, it doesnt scratch a bit on the things which I have posted.

Quote:http://yonseijournal.files.wordpress.com...ration.pdf

This very onesided study again lists mesures of integration and then lists the numbers of attacks against muslims and analyses the events and social triggers which cause anti islamic sentiment, discrimination and violence in the USA.
Completly failing to list muslim attacks on non muslims or assimilated muslims. Aswell as it fails to produce any numbers and studies on the question if muslims even want to integrate and if how many.

Quote:And check the PEW forum as it is the most authoratative due to its most extensive and representative samples:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/isla...n-publics/

First off, You are an asshole!!! Because I have posted several PEW studies and you didnt bother to reply let alone to read even a single one.
Which shows that you are a lazy person who would rather live in selfcomfort produced through ignoring facts which are uncomforting.

This study is about "islamic extremism".
It shows that the world wide support for suicide bombings amongs muslims is declining, yet still high.

It also confirms my point about muslim opinion on democracy and not yours:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study clearly shows Wrote:

It also plays to my points when conducting a survey on what role islam should play in politics:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study clearly shows again Wrote: Yet there is some ambivalence about the role of Islam in government. Majorities or pluralities in each of the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, except for Jordan, say Islam is playing a greater role in politics than a few years ago. But those who see Islam playing a large role in political life are also somewhat more likely to say that Islamic extremism poses a threat to their countries.

This contradicts european values, since in order for a country to be pluralist it must have a seculare goverment. Secular means: That state and religion are seperated - which means that all religions are treated equaly - which means no religion can claim power and inforce it`s views on others.

The study also says:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as quoted here Wrote: Worries about extremism are often greater among those who believe Islam has a significant voice in the political life of their country. This is particularly the case in Turkey and Morocco. The polling finds that those in Turkey who self-identify primarily with their nationality worry more about Islamic extremism than do those who think of themselves first as Muslim.

which in my view simply concides with the fact that the support for terror attacks is falling - meaning that those who would support the politics behind them are affraid of losing their public image.

the study confirms to me also the intolerance for non muslims in the muslim world via this survey:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote:

especialy jews seem to have a hard time amongst the islamic world, and it shows clearly, that even if alot of europeans have a unfavoriable view of muslims, the muslims are worse.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote: Anti-Jewish sentiment is endemic in the Muslim world. In Lebanon, all Muslims and 99% of Christians say they have a very unfavorable view of Jews. Similarly, 99% of Jordanians have a very unfavorable view of Jews. Large majorities of Moroccans, Indonesians, Pakistanis and six-in-ten Turks also view Jews unfavorably.

In the end, I must say, you posted a study which is not in favor of your view. So I even doubt that you actualy read it, which makes me think that you didnt read a single one of these studies but simply googled "muslims against violence" and "muslim integration" and then posted the links of whatever sounded nice to you.

Quote:http://www.britishcouncil.org/scotland-s...report.pdf

in the summery this study says all that needs to be known:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote: The British Council Scotland commissioned research into the attitudes of Scots towards
Muslims in Scotland and into Muslim Scots’ experiences of integration. The research was
conducted by Ipsos MORI Scotland under the auspices of the British Council’s “Our Shared
Europe” programme, which was established to acknowledge the contribution of Islamic
communities and cultures – both past and present – to the shaping of contemporary
European civilisation and society.

again

Quote:research into the attitudes of Scots towards
Muslims in Scotland and into Muslim Scots’ experiences of integration. The research was

isnt exactly a study about muslim attitudes towards scots, scotish sociaty, scotish drinking habits, scotish laws, scotish free speech, scots who draw mohamed, scotish women who like sex, scots who eat pork and how scots who aint muslims should be treated.

Quote:But you won't take these as authority cos your authority is your own faith that Muslims can't integrate and never will be able to

Nope, my authority is reason and therefor the conclusions I can get out of facts.
Your authority is a dream picture which you probably never attempted to question yourself.

Quote:JUST like Jews were seen as incompatible with German nationalism - that was a lie that sucked people in too

The jews were seen as parasitic and as the cause of all evil - for no reason and with no evidence.

I see muslims as individuals, and do not want individuals from that faith in my country when they reject the moral principles of that country, which most of them even say themselves.

Neither do I regulary march through the streets in a brown uniform hunting down muslims beating them or even murdering them, vandalising their buisnesses and forbidding others to buy there.
Nore am I building gaschambers to collectively murder them.

I should mention, that for me, as a german, who knows his history very well, there is nothing as repulsice and disgusting as a person or a group of people who claim that they were victims of the holocaust or national socialism, or that they were treated like the victims of national socialism.

So go fuck yourself.

Actualy most of the muslims were on Hitlers side during our countries darkest times:





If there is a modern right wing fascist group in Europe which can from it`s ferocity be compared to old and modern european fascist groups - yet outdo those in numbers and support, then it`s the salafists and every muslim who proclaims his religions superiority and it`s need to rule supreme.

Quote:As in past Global Attitudes surveys, publics in predominantly Muslim countries believe that democracy can work in their countries. Large and growing majorities in Morocco (83%), Lebanon (83%), Jordan (80%) and Indonesia (77%) — as well as pluralities in Turkey (48%) and Pakistan (43%) — say democracy can work well and is not just for the West.


Uh oh - looks like there are millions -MILLIONS- of Muslims who support democracy

Uh oh - time to admit you are wrong in your assumption that Muslims are against democracy.

Who are you gonna believe? Millions of Muslims or TGAC??

Or suggest they were lying to keep your faith stance plausible??

You copied this from a reply of yours in another thread, and I will only answere in that thread.


I would like to add, that while I went to the trouble of klicking and reading through your links you were to lazy, incompetent or in a state of to deep self denial to read mine.

(March 17, 2013 at 11:10 am)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)Dawud Wrote: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/07...ration.pdf

!
This is not a study and report of muslims attitude towards pluralism!
This is a study into how European countries are integrating muslims into their sociaties, and if these efforts are working.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)the report sais in it`s interduction Wrote: This report examines policies aimed at promoting integration, combating terrorism, and
countering violent extremism in five European countries with significant Muslim populations:
France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, and the United Kingdom. The report also evaluates the
role of the 27-member European Union (EU) in shaping European laws and policies related to
integration and counter-radicalization.

The report doesnt give any exact number to radicalisation amongst muslims in Europe, it simply lists and explains the recent efforts of european countries on how they attempt to integrate these population and helpp them to abide easier with european secular pluralist values.
This simply confirms the point that the integration of muslims into european sociaty has failed and that new efforts have to be undergone.
It does not rebuke the fact that through surveis it is known that alot of muslims disregard european values. As I have shown through links that I have posted and which you have ignored.
In the end, this study does nothing to disprove the claim that a big number of muslims within europe reject the very principles and values held up by the country they live in.

Quote:My favourite from Edinburgh University:

http://www.britishcouncil.org/scotland-s...report.pdf

This report explains the demographics and history behing muslim immigration into Europe in the past 50 years aswell as the change of public opinion towards muslims due to historic events is explained.
It also lists efforts by european countries to counter radicalisation and non integration.

Yet it doesnt deliver any numbers and statistics about the willingness of muslims to integrate let alone studies about muslim views.

So again, it doesnt scratch a bit on the things which I have posted.

Quote:http://yonseijournal.files.wordpress.com...ration.pdf

This very onesided study again lists mesures of integration and then lists the numbers of attacks against muslims and analyses the events and social triggers which cause anti islamic sentiment, discrimination and violence in the USA.
Completly failing to list muslim attacks on non muslims or assimilated muslims. Aswell as it fails to produce any numbers and studies on the question if muslims even want to integrate and if how many.

Quote:And check the PEW forum as it is the most authoratative due to its most extensive and representative samples:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/isla...n-publics/

First off, You are an asshole!!! Because I have posted several PEW studies and you didnt bother to reply let alone to read even a single one.
Which shows that you are a lazy person who would rather live in selfcomfort produced through ignoring facts which are uncomforting.

This study is about "islamic extremism".
It shows that the world wide support for suicide bombings amongs muslims is declining, yet still high.

It also confirms my point about muslim opinion on democracy and not yours:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study clearly shows Wrote:

It also plays to my points when conducting a survey on what role islam should play in politics:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study clearly shows again Wrote: Yet there is some ambivalence about the role of Islam in government. Majorities or pluralities in each of the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, except for Jordan, say Islam is playing a greater role in politics than a few years ago. But those who see Islam playing a large role in political life are also somewhat more likely to say that Islamic extremism poses a threat to their countries.

This contradicts european values, since in order for a country to be pluralist it must have a seculare goverment. Secular means: That state and religion are seperated - which means that all religions are treated equaly - which means no religion can claim power and inforce it`s views on others.

The study also says:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as quoted here Wrote: Worries about extremism are often greater among those who believe Islam has a significant voice in the political life of their country. This is particularly the case in Turkey and Morocco. The polling finds that those in Turkey who self-identify primarily with their nationality worry more about Islamic extremism than do those who think of themselves first as Muslim.

which in my view simply concides with the fact that the support for terror attacks is falling - meaning that those who would support the politics behind them are affraid of losing their public image.

the study confirms to me also the intolerance for non muslims in the muslim world via this survey:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote:

especialy jews seem to have a hard time amongst the islamic world, and it shows clearly, that even if alot of europeans have a unfavoriable view of muslims, the muslims are worse.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote: Anti-Jewish sentiment is endemic in the Muslim world. In Lebanon, all Muslims and 99% of Christians say they have a very unfavorable view of Jews. Similarly, 99% of Jordanians have a very unfavorable view of Jews. Large majorities of Moroccans, Indonesians, Pakistanis and six-in-ten Turks also view Jews unfavorably.

In the end, I must say, you posted a study which is not in favor of your view. So I even doubt that you actualy read it, which makes me think that you didnt read a single one of these studies but simply googled "muslims against violence" and "muslim integration" and then posted the links of whatever sounded nice to you.

Quote:http://www.britishcouncil.org/scotland-s...report.pdf

in the summery this study says all that needs to be known:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)as the study shows Wrote: The British Council Scotland commissioned research into the attitudes of Scots towards
Muslims in Scotland and into Muslim Scots’ experiences of integration. The research was
conducted by Ipsos MORI Scotland under the auspices of the British Council’s “Our Shared
Europe” programme, which was established to acknowledge the contribution of Islamic
communities and cultures – both past and present – to the shaping of contemporary
European civilisation and society.

again

Quote:research into the attitudes of Scots towards
Muslims in Scotland and into Muslim Scots’ experiences of integration. The research was

isnt exactly a study about muslim attitudes towards scots, scotish sociaty, scotish drinking habits, scotish laws, scotish free speech, scots who draw mohamed, scotish women who like sex, scots who eat pork and how scots who aint muslims should be treated.

Quote:But you won't take these as authority cos your authority is your own faith that Muslims can't integrate and never will be able to

Nope, my authority is reason and therefor the conclusions I can get out of facts.
Your authority is a dream picture which you probably never attempted to question yourself.

Quote:JUST like Jews were seen as incompatible with German nationalism - that was a lie that sucked people in too

The jews were seen as parasitic and as the cause of all evil - for no reason and with no evidence.

I see muslims as individuals, and do not want individuals from that faith in my country when they reject the moral principles of that country, which most of them even say themselves.

Neither do I regulary march through the streets in a brown uniform hunting down muslims beating them or even murdering them, vandalising their buisnesses and forbidding others to buy there.
Nore am I building gaschambers to collectively murder them.

I should mention, that for me, as a german, who knows his history very well, there is nothing as repulsice and disgusting as a person or a group of people who claim that they were victims of the holocaust or national socialism, or that they were treated like the victims of national socialism.

So go fuck yourself.

Actualy most of the muslims were on Hitlers side during our countries darkest times:





If there is a modern right wing fascist group in Europe which can from it`s ferocity be compared to old and modern european fascist groups - yet outdo those in numbers and support, then it`s the salafists and every muslim who proclaims his religions superiority and it`s need to rule supreme.

Quote:As in past Global Attitudes surveys, publics in predominantly Muslim countries believe that democracy can work in their countries. Large and growing majorities in Morocco (83%), Lebanon (83%), Jordan (80%) and Indonesia (77%) — as well as pluralities in Turkey (48%) and Pakistan (43%) — say democracy can work well and is not just for the West.


Uh oh - looks like there are millions -MILLIONS- of Muslims who support democracy

Uh oh - time to admit you are wrong in your assumption that Muslims are against democracy.

Who are you gonna believe? Millions of Muslims or TGAC??

Or suggest they were lying to keep your faith stance plausible??

You copied this from a reply of yours in another thread, and I will only answere in that thread.


I would like to add, that while I went to the trouble of klicking and reading through your links you were to lazy, incompetent or in a state of to deep self denial to read mine.

Well done, German are Coming! That kudo is well deserved.
He never reads the posts, have a look at this thread:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-17620.html

Morocco

You want more you bigot?

Are Muslims stupid anti-Semites Meylis? Are your family stupid anti Semites?

---

I am a Muslim and I am pro democracy - but you don't want to hear from me...

(March 15, 2013 at 6:52 pm)Gooders1002 Wrote: There is a guy at work who is a Muslim, and he will not let me me get in a word in. Also as I do not who the Quran, what are the pages that show it's not a religion of peace but of its a brutal religion?

Firstly, it's a nonsense using the Qur'an to prove or disprove the nature of the Qur'an, it's recursive and pointless.

Secondly, one of the main features of Islamic study and philosophy is a process called abrogation (Naskh) which is the theory of ongoing reinterpretation of the Qur'an to keep it contrmporary, reveal hidden meanings, clarfiy points of religious significance, etc. This means that the Qur'an is not a static text that can be understood by laypeople through a simple encounter (such as reading it), you need to have a level of understanding in how the verses have been abrogated in the past and it also means context is critical to interpretation. There is no simple method of translating the Qur'an and many different schools of philosophy have grown up around this issue. Anyone who tells you there is one clear interpretation is not telling you the truth.

Finally, the Qur'an is written only to make sense in Arabic (as some words can not directly translated, like the Jewish Torah cannot be translated accurately out of Hebrew) and so any other-language translation is effectively not recognised by many Islamic Schollars as accurate.

There are a lot of online resources you can use, including an online, searchable qur'an. Here's one,

http://quran.com/

But remember my points above...


MM