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Do I sin because of Adam?
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H0ary H0bbit Religious Views: “Never to suffer would never to have been blessed.” - Edgar Allan Poe RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 4, 2013 at 2:46 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 3:16 am by fr0d0.)
(April 3, 2013 at 11:32 pm)Darkstar Wrote:(April 3, 2013 at 7:07 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: There is most likely meaning in the order, and in the choice of players. The word "making" would be a literary tool. My interpretation is strictly literal. But perhaps not as you know it Jim  (April 3, 2013 at 9:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Sin is defined to be blameworthy. No there cannot be sinless humans. You can avoid sins, but never with permanence. Of course Jesus was the sinless human, if that completes the circle for you. Other religions use actual sacrifice as payback.  RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 4, 2013 at 7:02 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 7:16 am by Mystic.)
(April 4, 2013 at 2:46 am)fr0d0 Wrote: No there cannot be sinless humans. You can avoid sins, but never with permanence. Sins are not blameworthy if they are inevitable. If there is no way for you to avoid sin, then you can't be blamed for sin. The conclusion follows from the premises. It doesn't make sense to attack the conclusion and not the argument or premises that lead to it. So which premise do you have an issue with? Or is the argument invalid? I guess I can re-make the syllogism. A property of sins is that they are blameworthy. If we can't avoid a sin, it would not be blameworthy. If we are bound to do at least one sin, then we cannot be blameworthy for doing that one sin. Therefore we aren't bound to do at least one sin (1, 3). Therefore it's possible to be sinless.
H0ary H0bbit Religious Views: “Never to suffer would never to have been blessed.” - Edgar Allan Poe
You can avoid the sin, you are just pre-disposed to do it, if you deny 'good'. Even if you acknowledge 'good' though, you're still at odds with your nature. ie it isn't black and white like your reduction. Therefore you cannot reduce it to that.
I think this enters the realm of pre-destination. We all follow our programming*, and from retrospect could be blameless. But we can never have that perspective, so we shoulder the responsibility for all of our chices. *we are biological machines that cannot choose to do anything but what influences us.
Whatever the case maybe, whatever level of sin, how grey it is, it needs to be blameworthy to be a sin, and there had to be a chance of avoiding it...can we agree upon this much? (the conclusion necessarily follows from that)
Note: This doesn't state any sinless humans existed, it simply shows it's possible.  (April 3, 2013 at 9:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Even if i ignored a long litany of things that would give me posts and post of things to laugh about..... exerting self will over God's will is rebellion and thus sin the exerting of self will is not in and of itself sinful but only becomes sin when it rebels against the will of someone in greater authority God's will v. man's self will
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 4, 2013 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 11:13 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 4, 2013 at 11:08 am)junkyardboy Wrote: exerting self will over God's will is rebellion and thus sinOh, is it now Quote:the exerting of self will is not in and of itself sinfulThen you're going to have to rethink the above - aren't you? Exerting self will -in opposition to- gods will, is what you probably meant to say there. If I was exerting my own self will with no reference or knowledge of gods will - over gods will- it wouldn't be sinful. Quote:but only becomes sin when it rebels against the will of someone in greater authorityRight, so, pretty much what I just stated - that self will gives you the ability to sin, not that you sin -because- you have self will. Right?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(April 4, 2013 at 11:12 am)Rhythm Wrote:(April 4, 2013 at 11:08 am)junkyardboy Wrote: exerting self will over God's will is rebellion and thus sinOh, is it now self will gives you the ability to oppose someone else's will remember the adage 'happy wife, happy life'? be self willed and see how long your marriage lasts
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
 (April 3, 2013 at 6:57 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:(April 3, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Godschild Wrote: Show me without a doubt that Adam did not exist, I have no doubt that God exist. You are the one claiming he did not, I just answered your question. Before you post it, no I can not prove to you God exist, actually that is not my responsibility, that work belongs to God. Faith is a step to knowing and knowing to knowledge, I do know God exist with no doubt, I have been given knowledge of who God is and what He's done for me. The reason I can not give you proof God exist, you do not want to consider it, if you decide you want to know God will reveal to you His existence. As for Muhammad splitting the moon, it looks as if he failed, it is in one piece and the astronauts found no scar, so no I do not believe he did. Muhammad was a real man, Islam says he was a prophet, for them that's so, for Christians it's not true, but then I do not believe we worship the same God. Since the God I believe in is the creator, He would be the only One who could split the moon.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
 (April 4, 2013 at 2:46 am)fr0d0 Wrote: My interpretation is strictly literal. So if it is literal, then an omniscient god would know both that Satan would turn on him and that if he did, Satan would lead Adam and Eve to eat the fruit if they were not given an understanding of right and wrong. God knows what will be the result in every possible scenario depending on the starting conditions he creates, so why would he even create Satan if he knew this would happen? If god created Adam and Eve in a way that he knew how they would turn out, would he not have, at the very least indirectly, created their sinful nature? John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. |
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