I did a search, and its alarming how often this has to be cleared up. Example:

(April 24, 2013 at 6:22 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: You never even once visit church or pray to a God coz you BELIEVE that there is no God.

Let me attempt to illustrate exactly why this is the absolute worst choice of words to make a point that you are absolutely NOT MAKING.

Lets say that Bill, Jane, and John appear on earth as intellectual beings capable of reflectioin and communication.

They are aware of their surroundings and begin to experience their existance as human beings to the best of their capability...

Before long they are learning very much about the world. They learn to make fire and tools. They take materials given to them and create useful objects from them. They engage in conversation about life and before long, they begin to contemplate their origin...

This is where The Burden of Proof begins...You with me Theists?

All 3 people have the question: "Where did we and our surroundings come from?"

Bill: "I was rubbing 2 sticks together earlier to create a fire, I realized that because I can make things, everything must in fact also have been created by someone else. Then I had a dream. A voice told me that I was right, and that they were in fact the one that created EVERYTHING!"

Jane: "What do you mean Bill? Are you saying that because you can rub sticks together to cause fire, the Sun that is also hot must have a similar origin, and your dream confirms this?"

Bill: "Precisely! Perhaps the voice of my dream belongs to a giant person like us...One we cannot see."

John: "I don't know Bill, I don't think we know enough about that Sun thing to be making such bold presumptions, all though the dream thing is pretty weird."

Bill: "Come on John, it makes perfect sense! Do you have a better idea?"

John: "No, and I'm not saying I believe you and I'm not saying that I don't, I would prefer not to speculate any further."

Bill: "Well, what about you Jane? Do you agree that what i've said must be true and that my dream confirms it?"

Jane: "No Bill, I do not believe you."

Bill: "Then you must be able to prove that my claim is false, otherwise you are choosing to be ignorant in the face of facts!"

Jane: "Not exactly, You took 2 sticks and made fire. We know the sun is hot, but we have no idea what exactly it is made of, nor can we see any reason to believe that a heat source such as that can be created from sticks, so to assume that because it is hot like our fire, it must have the same origin, seems a bit misleading. Secondly, we know how to make fire because we understand how to use the sticks. But, the sticks were here before the fire they created, and because we no so little of the sun, the same could be true for it. The sun may not need an explanation like the fire. Perhaps things are bit more complex then things just appearing from creation. Lastly, if someone made the Sun, and the sticks making fire is your reason for thinking it in the first place, what material do you suppose they used to create it? It seems as though your explanation needs some work. Also, Bill, I was thinking about fish the other day, and had a dream I was one. I am not convinced that this is a hint that I must actually be a fish."

Bill: "So, you believe that the being I will call God is not real."

Jane: "You misspeak again Bill. I do not believe that you are correct in your attempt at explaining our origin. I did not believe in God one hour ago, and I do not believe in it now. I do not know exactly where we came from, but I do reject what you've offered as an attempt to explain it."

Bill: "But you cannot show that what I say is false."

Jane: "I have no reason to believe what you say is true either, and for the time being, that's more than enough to feel confident that it isn't. My position has not changed. I have a question, you've failed to provide an acceptable explanation so I will continue my search for a more accurate one that has verifiable and reproducible results like the sticks and fire."

It's not that I believe there is no God.

I have no reason to believe that there is a God at all. It is the unmoved default position of having questions, and searching for answers back by proof and not unfalsifiable claims.

Here's the problem: theists hate uncertainty.

Saying "I don't know" bothers the fuck out of them. Oh, I know some will probably say "that's not true," but the fact is that if you are a theist, you still believe there is something out there, ultimately, watching over you.

I don't know if there is a god or not, but there's no evidence to say there is yet (if ever) therefore I will continue to act as if there isn't.

I hate Pascal's Wager. How come no one ever turns it around. "What if there is no god and you just left bupkis to your surviving generations?"

If there is no God, then there is no immortal soul, consciousness which according to karma tastes sweet fruits of good deeds committed on earth like planets. Or experience extreme pain in hell for violence and drug use, sins.
If there is no life after death, reincarnation, then we all are free to do anything, taking in account only law, our morals.
If there is no God then it doest make a big difference. You can commit your life to:wealth, power, fame, family, cybergaming, sport, sex, drugs, intoxication, overeating, violence. But who the f*** cares.
Although I can't say this about love - giving, forgiving, altruism, humanism, charity.
Love has some magic it it. Love is like a newborn baby its pure and saint.
How this magic called Love came from void, is strange.

(April 25, 2013 at 9:48 am)purplepurpose Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no immortal soul, consciousness which according to karma tastes sweet fruits of good deeds committed on earth like planets. Or experience extreme pain in hell for violence and drug use, sins.
If there is no life after death, reincarnation, then we all are free to do anything, taking in account only law, our morals.
If there is no God then it doest make a big difference. You can commit your life to:wealth, power, fame, family, cybergaming, sport, sex, drugs, intoxication, overeating, violence. But who the f*** cares.
Although I can't say this about love - giving, forgiving, altruism, humanism, charity.
Love has some magic it it. Love is like a newborn baby its pure and saint.
How this magic called Love came from void, is strange.

No thanks Bill. You can take that crazy crap back to the drawing board.

Quote:Here's the problem: theists hate uncertainty.

They also hate long explanations. Most have short attention spans.

(April 25, 2013 at 9:49 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Here's the problem: theists hate uncertainty.

They also hate long explanations. Most have short attention spans.

Have to disagree with you there, Min - even the fresh-faced dumb ones seem to be able to spend an inordinate amount of time on Jesus. I usually put it down to "If it doesn't interest me, I won't pay attention." They aren't interested in the world they were born to. Or someone's convinced them they shouldn't be.

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(April 25, 2013 at 9:48 am)purplepurpose Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no immortal soul, consciousness which according to karma tastes sweet fruits of good deeds committed on earth like planets. Or experience extreme pain in hell for violence and drug use, sins.
If there is no life after death, reincarnation, then we all are free to do anything, taking in account only law, our morals.
If there is no God then it doest make a big difference. You can commit your life to:wealth, power, fame, family, cybergaming, sport, sex, drugs, intoxication, overeating, violence. But who the f*** cares.
Although I can't say this about love - giving, forgiving, altruism, humanism, charity.
Love has some magic it it. Love is like a newborn baby its pure and saint.
How this magic called Love came from void, is strange.

If English is your first language, your English and Literature teachers did you a massive disservice in teaching you how to communicate.

Ill make it short. If person only consumes and accumulates his entire life nobody doesn't f***** care and his like parasite to society and nature.
But if person lives in altruistic, humanistic, charity then he might even live very long in peoples minds even after death.
But still even those memories will fade.

(April 25, 2013 at 9:54 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Ill make it short. If person only consumes and accumulates his entire life nobody doesn't f***** care and his like parasite to society and nature.

Maybe, maybe not. Also, it's "If a person only consumes and accumulates his entire life then nobody will fucking care and he will be like a parasite to society and nature."

That depends on how and what he accumulates and consumes.

(April 25, 2013 at 9:54 am)purplepurpose Wrote: But if person lives in altruistic, humanistic, charity then he might even live very long in peoples minds even after death.
But still even those memories will fade.

Again, maybe, maybe not. I'll refrain from correcting this one. Lots of people live those lives and don't get any fucking credit whatsoever.


So what's your point, Captain Obvious? You said you'd make it short and you did, but I don't see what the point behind this little explanation was in regards to the rest of the thread.

(April 25, 2013 at 9:48 am)purplepurpose Wrote: If there is no God,

We're going to address these propositions one at a time, because soup sandwich always follows this sentence.

Quote:then there is no immortal soul,

Doesn't follow. There being no god in no way precludes the existence of an immortal soul - case in point, there have been many belief systems which are void of gods but chock full of "immortal souls"

Quote:consciousness

Again, it doesn't follow. Meanwhile, you and I both would accept the existence of "consciousness" (though I'd add heavy qualifiers) in this world, right here - in which there is a disagreement about the status of the existence of gods. Regardless of which persons pov is accurate (between you and I) consciousness still seems to be on the table either way.

Quote:which according to karma tastes sweet fruits of good deeds committed on earth like planets. Or experience extreme pain in hell for violence and drug use, sins.

Which according to fairy tales - followed by fairy tales and quaint notions. I'm thoroughly unimpressed. How can anything be -according to- a non-existent "anything" in the first place?

Quote:If there is no life after death, reincarnation, then we all are free to do anything, taking in account only law, our morals.

Even if there is we are still free to "do anything" except that what you've described isn't "anything" at all - since you saw fit to immediately modify it with our laws and moral codes.

Quote:If there is no God then it doest make a big difference.

Apparently, even if there is, it still doesn;t make a big difference, que the many examples of people who -if only through brute force of demographics both believe in a god and commit their lives to:

Quote:wealth, power, fame, family, cybergaming, sport, sex, drugs, intoxication, overeating, violence.

.............................

Quote: But who the f*** cares.

Apparently you, and also I - and again we see a place where a belief in a god or the existence of a god seems to be completely toothless. If there were no gods would you suddenly stop giving a shit? Would you devote your life to any of those things above that you negatively value (laying aside criticism of -why- you negatively value any of those things)

Quote:Although I can't say this about love - giving, forgiving, altruism, humanism, charity.

You can't say what about these things..precisely?

Quote:Love has some magic it it. Love is like a newborn baby its pure and saint.
How this magic called Love came from void, is strange.

Does it now? I was unawares. Do you know much about the "purity" of a newborn baby - what does this mean and how did you aqcuire this knowledge - or- is it (as I suspect) a platitude? What magic? Do you similarly wonder how -anything- could have come from the same void - or do you suspend your wonder and skepticism when invoking gods and magic?

(April 25, 2013 at 9:54 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Ill make it short. If person only consumes and accumulates his entire life nobody doesn't f***** care and his like parasite to society and nature.
But if person lives in altruistic, humanistic, charity then he might even live very long in peoples minds even after death.
But still even those memories will fade.

Yup! Who cares? Morality has relative value. Why is it necessary to be appraised on a cosmic/eternal scale?

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