(June 6, 2013 at 1:07 am)ronedee Wrote: LOL! Well my friend, you make a great case for Atheism!

Oh I don't know about that...and it certainly isn't my intention. I'm simply trying to express why I couldn't be a christian if it weren't a matter of belief. If your god was there before me, the bridge at my feet - all things align in the particulars that you've given. My not being a christian has more to do with things that I do think are existent...than anything that I don't.

Quote:I'm actually trying to "vicariously" put myself in your shoes. But to do so puts my spiritual evolution in diapers. And I cannot conceive being w/o faith in Jesus!

Faith isn't at issue for me here.

Quote:I guess one could look at the devil and see eloquence and refinement, and God as a leader of ghouls. But what leads a person to that vision? Well...rules would!

Meh, I see neither. There isn't really enough in the text to establish the devil as being eloquent or refined (this is all narrative added later...when you think of the devil you're likely thinking of some manner of slick trickster god rather than anything contained within the pages of the bible). What would rules have to do with it anyway?

Quote:The devil is freedom from rule..... and God? We don't have that option.

Laying aside that I'm no more likely to put my chips in with your devil than I am with your god - I'm a big fan of rules. I like thinking about them, following them, bending them, breaking them....

Quote:But freedom is chaos w/o order. All the devil worship has always baffled me! Why would anyone take the inferior entity? LOL!~ my cash is on the BIG guy!

Baffles me to (but so does the qualifier "all" before it..as if there has ever been much devil worship). I wouldn't take either entity as presented - because neither offers anything that is superior to the standard fare of our humdrum earthly life.

Quote:I've spend a lot of time trying to give an explanation of "my thoughts" and "feelings" about God. But, it seems all I've done is baffled you more than you were before. I put things in the simplest terms I could, and much to my dismay at diminishing what God has done for us, for Love. When trying to explain God in secular style...well.... it just don't feel right as a Christian!

I appreciate the effort.

Quote:Sometimes I feel like I'm better off...and you/all are better served by me/us just blurting out scripture, and general bible thumping. At least, the Word gets out there, and the Holy Spirit can do His thing!

It seems like that spirit has some work to do...hope he gets around to it soon, because I'd love to have a better idea of what I'll be missing out on in the sweet hereafter - and I aint getting any younger....eh? Regardless of whether my number is ever called on what must be a very long list of people who haven't yet received the necessary revelations....I don't think that blurting out scripture or thumping the bible serves anyone very well - not even your god. I'd say that you've done a much better job here than any bum standing on a soapbox with a megaphone could have done. Am I changed? Have I seen the light? No, of course not - but that's because my objection is one that cuts to a fundamental and immutable doctrine of your faith. You cannot disavow it, you cannot tell me that it's something that it's not. I'd be willing to hazard the guess that we both knew this going into it.

(June 6, 2013 at 1:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: It seems like that spirit has some work to do...hope he gets around to it soon, because I'd love to have a better idea of what I'll be missing out on in the sweet hereafter - and I aint getting any younger....eh? Regardless of whether my number is ever called on what must be a very long list of people who haven't yet received the necessary revelations....I don't think that blurting out scripture or thumping the bible serves anyone very well - not even your god. I'd say that you've done a much better job here than any bum standing on a soapbox with a megaphone could have done. Am I changed? Have I seen the light? No, of course not - but that's because my objection is one that cuts to a fundamental and immutable doctrine of your faith. You cannot disavow it, you cannot tell me that it's something that it's not. I'd be willing to hazard the guess that we both knew this going into it.

Well... I've enjoyed talking with you! It's nice to engage in a conversation w/o all the name calling and stereotyping. No matter what our association is, we are still people with mostly the same feelings and love for our families.

You've actually inspired me to new heights of explanation of the spirit! But as I said, I'm trying to temper it with actual doctrine. I would never want to be caught in that quandary between uncertainty and fact, just trying to put "gut feelings" into words...so if I have a guilty moment I might run back and change something on you! LOL!

But anyway, I just want you to know that my faith in Jesus has been a plus in my life, and those around me. I just can't or won't deny it! And I do pray for you, and the others (always) that somehow God will reveal Himself, and work for good in all your lives! Ron

(June 6, 2013 at 10:45 am)ronedee Wrote: Well... I've enjoyed talking with you! It's nice to engage in a conversation w/o all the name calling and stereotyping. No matter what our association is, we are still people with mostly the same feelings and love for our families.

Agreed..though in retrospect I do wish I'd managed to get just a little more name calling in - for spice.

Quote:You've actually inspired me to new heights of explanation of the spirit! But as I said, I'm trying to temper it with actual doctrine. I would never want to be caught in that quandary between uncertainty and fact, just trying to put "gut feelings" into words...so if I have a guilty moment I might run back and change something on you! LOL!

By all means, change away. If something occurs to you with regards to some part of our conversation at some later time just quote it and give me the new party line bud.

Quote:But anyway, I just want you to know that my faith in Jesus has been a plus in my life, and those around me. I just can't or won't deny it! And I do pray for you, and the others (always) that somehow God will reveal Himself, and work for good in all your lives! Ron

All well and good, though I'd obviously disagree with your assessment of your faiths impact on your life and those of others on at least one count. Now, just so this is clear.....it's never been my intention to force you to deny some part of your faith...quite the opposite. I've been trying to entice you to affirm your faith - to apply it's principles evenly throughout all of your experience....in short...I've been half hoping that you would advocate for vicarious redemption or atonement here - in this world..as part of our own system of handling the same. After all, it's gods system, and you clearly believe it to be the bees knees...shouldn't we be aspiring to that goal?

Somehow I doubt that your prayers are going to have any effect like bumping me up in the line (or any effect, really) - but since I haven't burst into flames and you've presumably been casting a magic spell over me meanwhile...it seems that the sentiment is at least benign - so have at it. Now, if I wake up one morning with a shriveled penis, or my crops rot on the vine.......you're gonna be suspect number one.

All joking aside....perhaps I can help you to see this last bit in a different light. If I'm not willing to accept this deities offer of protection - from itself- (and this for reasons of ethics, dignity, and justice primarily) why would I be willing to accept any other "good" it might offer me? Am I supposed to be grateful or accepting of the loan that Don Jehovah offers....or happy that he deigns to purchase products from my business rather than the business of another? Or relieved that he chooses not to destroy my business despite turning him down on his offer of protection?

(June 6, 2013 at 11:43 am)Rhythm Wrote: All well and good, though I'd obviously disagree with your assessment of your faiths impact on your life and those of others on at least one count. Now, just so this is clear.....it's never been my intention to force you to deny some part of your faith...quite the opposite. I've been trying to entice you to affirm your faith - to apply it's principles evenly throughout all of your experience....in short...I've been half hoping that you would advocate for vicarious redemption or atonement here - in this world..as part of our own system of handling the same. After all, it's gods system, and you clearly believe it to be the bees knees...shouldn't we be aspiring to that goal?

If your question is: How sharing in atonement or redemption relates to my faith? I offer all suffering and adversity in my life, and of others (daily) to God. The only things we have to offer Him is our pain, sufferings and failings. Because everything "good" is from Him. That, and prayer is how I stay in constant contact. Once these things are offered to Him.....honestly..... I've NEVER been let down. Never!

An atheist may call it: luck, good fortune, positive re-enforcement, etc. I call it answered prays, and trust in God.

I wish it worked for Lottery numbers!

(June 6, 2013 at 11:43 am)Rhythm Wrote: Somehow I doubt that your prayers are going to have any effect like bumping me up in the line (or any effect, really) - but since I haven't burst into flames and you've presumably been casting a magic spell over me meanwhile...it seems that the sentiment is at least benign - so have at it. Now, if I wake up one morning with a shriveled penis, or my crops rot on the vine.......you're gonna be suspect number one.

LOL! Prayer only works for good! But, I do remember that one time.........

(June 6, 2013 at 11:43 am)Rhythm Wrote: All joking aside....perhaps I can help you to see this last bit in a different light. If I'm not willing to accept this deities offer of protection - from itself- (and this for reasons of ethics, dignity, and justice primarily) why would I be willing to accept any other "good" it might offer me? Am I supposed to be grateful or accepting of the loan that Don Jehovah offers....or happy that he deigns to purchase products from my business rather than the business of another? Or relieved that he chooses not to destroy my business despite turning him down on his offer of protection?

A relationship with God is a personal one. There are religions, and there are men/women of God. No religion will get us to heaven.

God judges a man by his heart. Jesus said, "There are follower's not of this flock.", and "I know my sheep, and they know me." To me that says, the principals and words of Jesus are [as important] as He is!

To say a man is saved, or not is an insult to God. He alone makes that decision based on a man's heart/love.

Then it's conceivable that we might find ourselves in an even more disturbing predicament. Imagine that you find yourself part of the invisible choir. The lord is before you and you know in that moment that you have entered paradise. But when you look to your left - there I sit.

My heart paid the price of my entry - but I do not wish to be there, and my opinion of the god in question has not changed. What then?

(June 7, 2013 at 12:17 am)Rhythm Wrote: Then it's conceivable that we might find ourselves in an even more disturbing predicament. Imagine that you find yourself part of the invisible choir. The lord is before you and you know in that moment that you have entered paradise. But when you look to your left - there I sit.

My heart paid the price of my entry - but I do not wish to be there, and my opinion of the god in question has not changed. What then?

Well.... For one, what do we actually [think] about God (in our minds eye of what a God should be)? He would be: Just, Loving, Fatherly, Forgiving, and Give us everything He has!

Punishment is NOT on the chart. Unless, that is what we want.

Jesus said: "I will NOT judge you. You will judge yourself!" He also says after we die, "Those who come to the light, will come to me."

That's pretty simple. It says to me, if we want heaven we will go there. If we don't, we won't. The "choice" is always there. Because we "want it".

You know that a lot of countries hate us for our freedoms here in America. Not because they wouldn't want to be free, but because it doesn't limit us in anything! Including religious freedom! But, we wouldn't have it any other way! We are free to think and be anything we want!

Well....? This is part of God's plan! To let us do "whatever we want"! We have dominion over the earth, and all that is in it! It is in our power (individually & collectively) to do a lot of good....or evil.

I was at my dad's house who is an atheist, for a party. When the subject of God came up...which he never missed a chance to bash.... He said the classic "if there was a God babies wouldn't be dying in 3rd world countries." My dad is very well off, and all his friends are too!

I prayed quietly that the Holy Spirit would give me words. Not so much for my dad, but for all the people there nodding their heads in agreement w/ him. I asked my dad a question: [hey dad, hows business? Are you doing well for yourself?] He said, "well, yeah very good!." [And your business partners too?] "Yes, they are doing very well, why?" I said, then why don't you and your friends get on a jet and go help those dying 3rd world babies?

He had a blank look on his face, and didn't say a word. And everyone in the room looked quite uncomfortable, and sober.

Is it practical for him to go save babies? Probably not. Can he save all the babies? Probably not. But, we do have it in our power to irradicate a lot of shit happening in the world. We are free to do it, or not.

It's what we wanted from the beginning. Free-will. So, we will always have that chioce. Even to the end. And I don't know what the options other than God are...maybe you'll have a change of heart when you see it someday! It might be everything you would expect...or more!

(June 7, 2013 at 10:58 am)ronedee Wrote: Well.... For one, what do we actually [think] about God (in our minds eye of what a God should be)? He would be: Just, Loving, Fatherly, Forgiving, and Give us everything He has!

"We" probably don't think that, you may, and your thoughts are obviously your own business.

Quote:Punishment is NOT on the chart. Unless, that is what we want.

Jesus said: "I will NOT judge you. You will judge yourself!" He also says after we die, "Those who come to the light, will come to me."

That's pretty simple. It says to me, if we want heaven we will go there. If we don't, we won't. The "choice" is always there. Because we "want it".

-The ranks of heaven swell with undesireables who made it passed the gates by virtue of having wanted to be there-

Yet another reason I'd rather not go.

Quote:You know that a lot of countries hate us for our freedoms here in America.

I think that's probably not why "a lot" of countries hate us...but I recognize that it;s the sort of thing people tell themselves about why "a lot" of countries hate us.

Quote: Not because they wouldn't want to be free, but because it doesn't limit us in anything! Including religious freedom! But, we wouldn't have it any other way! We are free to think and be anything we want! Well....? This is part of God's plan! To let us do "whatever we want"! We have dominion over the earth, and all that is in it! It is in our power (individually & collectively) to do a lot of good....or evil.

Indeed, free to consign ourselves to the flame. Freedom at the point of a gun, no less. Not quite the american model - so I don't know why you think the analogy holds.

Quote:I was at my dad's house who is an atheist, for a party. When the subject of God came up...which he never missed a chance to bash.... He said the classic "if there was a God babies wouldn't be dying in 3rd world countries." My dad is very well off, and all his friends are too!

I prayed quietly that the Holy Spirit would give me words. Not so much for my dad, but for all the people there nodding their heads in agreement w/ him. I asked my dad a question: [hey dad, hows business? Are you doing well for yourself?] He said, "well, yeah very good!." [And your business partners too?] "Yes, they are doing very well, why?" I said, then why don't you and your friends get on a jet and go help those dying 3rd world babies?

An appeal to hypocrisy? What is going on recently with this shit? No dice bud, no response is required from your father because you failed to construct a coherent thought.

Quote:He had a blank look on his face, and didn't say a word. And everyone in the room looked quite uncomfortable, and sober.

I'd be uncomfortable in the presence of a person who tried manufacture an excuse for their god via TQ as well...in fact, I am uncomfortable - right now.

Quote:Is it practical for him to go save babies? Probably not. Can he save all the babies? Probably not. But, we do have it in our power to irradicate a lot of shit happening in the world. We are free to do it, or not.

And?

Quote:It's what we wanted from the beginning. Free-will. So, we will always have that chioce. Even to the end. And I don't know what the options other than God are...maybe you'll have a change of heart when you see it someday! It might be everything you would expect...or more!

You keep painting a picture of god that is even worse than the picture I had going in.........change of heart? At this point, Ron, I'd require a complete change of person. I would have to cease to exist and be replaced in every particular by a person whom I would loathe......

(June 7, 2013 at 11:10 am)Rhythm Wrote: You keep painting a picture of god that is even worse than the picture I had going in.........change of heart? At this point, Ron, I'd require a complete change of person. I would have to cease to exist and be replaced in every particular by a person whom I would loathe......

I don't see the need to pick apart everything I said (unless for show). Some of which was for insight into my way of thinking...but sobeit

I don't want to change you. I've never tried to change my father or youngest brother of their way of thinking about God. I've had years of practice! We just talk about "why" we think the way we do. Because it's the "process" that leads one to their individual way of thinking. There is really no need to put barriers in front of us!

Unless you think the "others" may think you're getting too comfy with me?

I'm just talking, not converting. I promise.

(June 7, 2013 at 11:28 am)ronedee Wrote: I don't see the need to pick apart everything I said (unless for show). Some of which was for insight into my way of thinking...but sobeit

Likewise, you've been given insight into my way of thinking. If you don't appreciate my highlighting those areas of your thinking where you have done it poorly that would be to your own detriment. Wouldn't you rather not tq your own god? Now that it's been pointed out to you...don't you think you might avoid it in the future? Or, and I truly hope that this is not the case, will you continue to offer criticism -of your family- in an attempt to establish an incoherent defense -of your god-? If your god needs defending, or can be defended - don't you think it deserves just a little competence in that regard (shouldn't it at least be possible)?

Quote:I don't want to change you. I've never tried to change my father or youngest brother of their way of thinking about God. I've had years of practice! We just talk about "why" we think the way we do. Because it's the "process" that leads one to their individual way of thinking. There is really no need to put barriers in front of us!

No, of course not. You don't want to change me.....you're just praying that I'll receive a revelation that changes me........

Quote:Unless you think the "others" may think you're getting too comfy with me?

I'm just talking, not converting. I promise.

I'm as "comfy" with you now as I have been from the beginning Ron - and perhaps you should avoid thinly veiled narratives about the inequity or associations of others on the board, and how that might influence my dialogue with you.

I appreciate that you're just talking, and not converting...and even more so I appreciate that you're actually trying to explain some things about your god and your faith rather than hammering the table with a tome and saying "godwillsit!" or "what are you gonna do about it?". -That- is the main reason that you haven't been getting the full measure of my contempt for the ideas that you have expressed (but as we continue to discuss this, and your explanations begin to become thinner and thinner...that patience in me also wanes). If you expect me to sit here and shut my mouth (be the good atheist), letting you prattle on about those ideas (remember..I loathe them.....I could say much, much worse then I have said) uncritically then you have placed an unreasonable restriction upon our conversation. In fact, you will be suggesting that we not engage in conversation at all. You will be talking at me, and not with me.

If you don't want to playtest these things you say - then I'm not your guy....and this forum probably isn't even the place.......

I am not forcing you to respond to me, I am not holding your hand while you type...nor am I composing -what- you type. You know me enough to know at least -the manner- in which I will respond. If you don't like it, if you don't want to have this conversation (for whatever reason) that would be -your- call. But just like I won't sit here quietly while you peddle off incompetent thought..I won't sit here quietly while you suggest that there is some negative value to my calling you out on it...or that I'm not engaging in this discussion properly for having done so.

(June 7, 2013 at 12:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you don't want to playtest these things you say - then I'm not your guy....and this forum probably isn't even the place.......

I am not forcing you to respond to me, I am not holding your hand while you type...nor am I composing -what- you type. You know me enough to know at least -the manner- in which I will respond. If you don't like it, if you don't want to have this conversation (for whatever reason) that would be -your- call. But just like I won't sit here quietly while you peddle off incompetent thought..I won't sit here quietly while you suggest that there is some negative value to my calling you out on it...or that I'm not engaging in this discussion properly for having done so.

LOL! I like your honest (opinion)...but hate your contempt!

I haven't in one word told you that anything [you've said] was "wrong", or taken anything on a trip around the Universe...on the other-hand?

You can wind me up and point me in whatever direction (here) that you'd like....BUT, don't put thoughts and words in my lines that aren't there! It's just....wrong! Whoever does it!

In your zeal to poke holes in my beliefs you are taking way too many liberties with my thoughts and words. I don't do that with you, or anyone else. It's not right. It's not putting me on my heels to defend my postion...its annoying. "Surmise" that I'm intentionally a "good" person. But that ends the speculation there.

Everything I've stated is actual events in my life. Take it anyway you like...but you weren't [there] so your perspective is from your own dis-trust in me and my motives. Save the faux defense, and fegining over my poor family (who would laugh at the very thought of someone defending them...like you I might add!). That is thinly veiled. Believe me...if you saw them in action...you'd feel sorry for me!

There is no malice for you, or anyone here. Yes, I can be a reflection of the way I'm treated. But I have nothing but love and respect for all of God's creation. Including atheists, like you, my dad and bro.