(June 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...hypothetically of course!

Maybe 50 or 60 years from now when science finally proves that all of you are right and there is no God..... and religion dies out for you!

Where as a society will the moral compass come from? Considering of course you even want a moral society?

Will it be: Laws? hmmmm...who will instill these laws? Teachers? Police? Parents? Military? Government Agencies?

Will it be community groups? Say like: Acorn? YMC...whoops....Boys & Girls & Gay clubs? Planned Parenthood? The cities or states?

Or will it be just every "being" for themselves, and NO LAWS? Total FREEDOM! WOW!! Freedom to do ANYTHING!! And no one to tell you differently!

I'm just wondering what it will be like in "Your Perfect World" w/o God & religion?

Let us see where the moral compass points in a world w/o God?

First off I would say that 'science' doesn't care one iota about a god or gods. No scientist I've ever spoken to (and I'm engaged to one) even thinks about god through their research.

I would also, in addition, say that the abolition of religion is not (my) goal, rather the abolition of people using their religion as a hammer to force others into thinking as they do as their sole raison d'être.

Anyway, to the premise of the initialy question (effectively; what morals [if any] will dominate society]), I would say, whatever morality has evolved socially at the point in time that the hypothetical was engaged.

As it has done throughout all of history. There has never been an objective morality that exists in history. The morality of a Christian community in a south Scottish border town 1,300 years ago would be wildly different to what it is today. Indeed, morality across the globe can be pinpointed to be vastly different dependent on the community one sought to engage with.

You may be interested (although also may not be) that states with the most entrenched secularism in Europe also tend to be the most peaceful and have the more liberally informed laws when it comes to justice and rehabilitation (for example), notably states such as Norway and Sweden. That's not to say that secularism and religion are mutually exclusive; indeed, Christianity's greatest invention in history was secularism in 1648.

However, I must insist that the idea that we claim 'there is no god' is off the mark. It's simply not true. We cannot know for sure, but until there's evidence to back up an existence of a deity, we can easily and rightly dismiss such claims as 'absurd and false until proven otherwise'.

When Christian hegemonies ran the state system in Western Europe (from the people pre-17th century) the life expectancy for your average poor parishioner was pretty dire, excluding the numerous conflicts that they were expected (forced) to fight in on behalf of the sovereign (often either endorsed through the papacy or in opposition to it). After Westphalia we had the enlightenment, and the beginnings of the liberation of the common people and eventually their supremacy over the sovereign through democratic liberalism (in all its forms).

Democratic liberalism is the result of the abolition of the church's involvement in state affairs and the adoption of cuius regio, eius religio. If we're going to talk about morality in the state without religion, we should look at the way in which the people took control of their own religion from the central papacy and adopted their own rules based on their own state contexts. It hasn't worked out too bad, IMHO.

(June 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm)ronedee Wrote: Maybe 50 or 60 years from now when science finally proves that all of you are right and there is no God..... and religion dies out for you!

Science can't prove his existence , because Science don't act in the metaphysical domain.

Questions :
1.Are you creationist ?
2.How do you became Catholic ?
3.Did you read all texts by "church fathers" (Aurelius Ambrosius , Augustine of Hippo , Pope Gregory I , Saint Jerome etc...).
4.Are you a traditionalist catholic (I think that you're maybe a traditionalist).
5.Why do you believe in God ?

(June 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...hypothetically of course!

Maybe 50 or 60 years from now when science finally proves that all of you are right and there is no God..... and religion dies out for you!

Where as a society will the moral compass come from? Considering of course you even want a moral society?

Will it be: Laws? hmmmm...who will instill these laws? Teachers? Police? Parents? Military? Government Agencies?

Will it be community groups? Say like: Acorn? YMC...whoops....Boys & Girls & Gay clubs? Planned Parenthood? The cities or states?

Or will it be just every "being" for themselves, and NO LAWS? Total FREEDOM! WOW!! Freedom to do ANYTHING!! And no one to tell you differently!

I'm just wondering what it will be like in "Your Perfect World" w/o God & religion?

Let us see where the moral compass points in a world w/o God?

Ronedee, you don't have a moral compass. You have an immoral one. Using your compass anyone can do whatever the hell they want, just make sure you say your sorry on the way out. For all you know, Joe Stalin,(that atheist asshole) will sit at the right hand of christ someday. I told you before to get your rudder checked. Now you better check your compass.

The world as it is today will never be without religion. The 50-60 year mark isn't realistic. Try thousands. But I'll have no clue what the world will be like in thousands of years. It could be a burned down craphole, or it could be real-life Star Wars. I don't know. So I can't make a judgment on how people in the year 3000 will be.

Also, can I point out that science has already proven the likelihood of any god we can currently worship to be zero? So the world where Christianity, Islam, etc. are disproven already exists. Which provides evidence to my point that the world, in the way it is now, won't give up religion.

This thread is ridiculous, and so are you. Good day.

(June 10, 2013 at 1:40 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:

(June 10, 2013 at 1:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: such terrible crimes would not have escaped public notice, I grew up in the 50's and 60's and experienced the things going on then till now.

The thing about youth is that it tends to not pay attention to worldly matters. After all, why should the young be worried about that which does not affect him when he believes he will live forever? Our mortality really does not seep in until we are adults, and then we begin to pay attention to everything around us. I guarantee that crime was just as bad in your youth as it is today. You simply did not pay attention because there was no reason for you to do so.

Well, let's see when I was young we did not lock our doors at night or when we went to town and other places. Today I have two Rotties that live inside my house and four outside and I lock up everything all the time, hows that for starters. School children didn't shoot each other, we never dreamed of being abducted by strangers. When a murder happened it was in the news, today they are so common place they do not always make the news. When I grew up the news reported many good things today they only have time for the bad and there is more news time now than when I grew up. The country is a much more dangerous place today than it was then.

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(June 10, 2013 at 1:42 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:

(June 10, 2013 at 1:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: Media saturation has nothing to do with it, such terrible crimes would not have escaped public notice, I grew up in the 50's and 60's and experienced the things going on then till now. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to what's going on in this country, it's on a steep downhill grade, maybe the younger generation can't see it, but those I grew up with can and that includes Christians and nonbelievers.

But they DO escape public notice. If you don't have widespread media to get the word out, there is no public notice.

As a for-instance: The NSA got a bill renewed the other day that allows them to collect data on EVERY cell phone call that is made. This has been going on for 7 YEARS and yet, there was no "public notice" of this activity because the MEDIA didn't cover it.

Do some research on crime statistics. I think you will find you have been badly mislead BY THE MEDIA.

That was done in another post and the crime rate from when I was young till now has increased several times and if I'm not mistaken the comparison was per 100,000 people.

(June 10, 2013 at 3:41 pm)Godschild Wrote: Well, let's see when I was young we did not lock our doors at night or when we went to town and other places. Today I have two Rotties that live inside my house and four outside and I lock up everything all the time, hows that for starters. School children didn't shoot each other, we never dreamed of being abducted by strangers. When a murder happened it was in the news, today they are so common place they do not always make the news. When I grew up the news reported many good things today they only have time for the bad and there is more news time now than when I grew up. The country is a much more dangerous place today than it was then.

What's increased is communication.

Do you honestly think that things like terrorism, murder, rape, burglary (etc etc) didn't happen on the same scale 10,20, 50 or even 1000 years ago?

You're statistically much more likely to live to your 100s today than in any time in history, increasing population demographics not withstanding.

I think what has increased today is paranoia, which I agree is due in part it the media portrayal of society today. However, I'd still much prefer to live today than in anytime in the past, ever.

As I'm sure has already been pointed out, morality has nothing to do with religion. Most of us here are atheists, and many of us are moral. Furthermore, laws---in the U.S., anyway---bear little resemblance to the prevailing religious dogma of the land. For example, abortion is not illegal, but stoning disrespectful children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) is. Religion as a moral compass was responsible for the bombings of Eric Rudolph, the murder of Dr. John Britton by Paul Hill, and the September 11, 2001 terror attacks. Religion doesn't make anybody moral, including you, I'd be willing to bet. You're telling all of us that if God didn't exist you'd be out there raping and murdering and stealing, right? Thanks for sharing, and stay out of my neighborhood.

Religion has already "died out" for most of us here, and science may or may not have had anything to do with it. That's a Straw Man argument. Science can never sufficiently demonstrate to the desperate and deluded that God doesn't exist. It isn't even trying to; it's a tool used by those of us who actually care about the reality of how things work in the world. Since you obviously don't care about that, you reject science (or think you do, anyway---except when you're sick, of course, or use a computer, etc.).

There will always be atavistic dingbat Godders, like Civil War re-enacters, who cling to the bullshit of the past. Good for you, whatever. But the rest of us live in the real world, so we'd appreciate it if you stopped opposing stem cell research, disputing evolutionary science with fairy tales and hindering access for poor women to cheap gynecological exams and mammograms (Planned Parenthood does more than provide abortions; the one in my town doesn't provide them at all, but there are always a few self-righteous cretins protesting out front anyway).

(June 10, 2013 at 3:41 pm)Godschild Wrote: School children didn't shoot each other

Wrong. School shootings in the United States

Quote: we never dreamed of being abducted by strangers. When a murder happened it was in the news, today they are so common place they do not always make the news.

Because we have increased communication now everyone knows when a mouse farts across the country. Abductions still happened, it was just that the paranoia about children being abducted and sex predators wasn't drilled into kids long ago like it is today. It was a little bit, though, because I'm 42 and I remember as a child learning about never taking candy or going somewhere with strangers. If your parents didn't at least teach you to be wary of strangers then they weren't doing their job.

Quote:When I grew up the news reported many good things today they only have time for the bad and there is more news time now than when I grew up. The country is a much more dangerous place today than it was then.

It's called "sensationalism." You know, if it bleeds, it leads. But are you absolutely certain that the news didn't report bad things back then, or is it just that when you're a kid you don't pay much attention to the news and instead would rather watch cartoons or play with your toys? I'm also thinking you're suffering from selective memory and cognitive bias.

(June 10, 2013 at 4:18 pm)cneron Wrote: As I'm sure has already been pointed out, morality has nothing to do with religion. Most of us here are atheists, and many of us are moral. Furthermore, laws---in the U.S., anyway---bear little resemblance to the prevailing religious dogma of the land. For example, abortion is not illegal, but stoning disrespectful children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) is. Religion as a moral compass was responsible for the bombings of Eric Rudolph, the murder of Dr. John Britton by Paul Hill, and the September 11, 2001 terror attacks. Religion doesn't make anybody moral, including you, I'd be willing to bet. You're telling all of us that if God didn't exist you'd be out there raping and murdering and stealing, right? Thanks for sharing, and stay out of my neighborhood.

Religion has already "died out" for most of us here, and science may or may not have had anything to do with it. That's a Straw Man argument. Science can never sufficiently demonstrate to the desperate and deluded that God doesn't exist. It isn't even trying to; it's a tool used by those of us who actually care about the reality of how things work in the world. Since you obviously don't care about that, you reject science (or think you do, anyway---except when you're sick, of course, or use a computer, etc.).

There will always be atavistic dingbat Godders, like Civil War re-enacters, who cling to the bullshit of the past. Good for you, whatever. But the rest of us live in the real world, so we'd appreciate it if you stopped opposing stem cell research, disputing evolutionary science with fairy tales and hindering access for poor women to cheap gynecological exams and mammograms (Planned Parenthood does more than provide abortions; the one in my town doesn't provide them at all, but there are always a few self-righteous cretins protesting out front anyway).

First of all prove to me the verses you gave means what you say.
If you can't then I guess we can disregard the rest of you statement.

(June 10, 2013 at 1:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: Media saturation has nothing to do with it, such terrible crimes would not have escaped public notice, I grew up in the 50's and 60's and experienced the things going on then till now. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to what's going on in this country, it's on a steep downhill grade, maybe the younger generation can't see it, but those I grew up with can and that includes Christians and nonbelievers.

I guess it depends on what you view as a decline. When you consider the fact that, as God has been evicted from America, so too has America slowly disposed of wonderful official and semi-official institutions which Americans previously justified using Jesus Christ and the Bible (which, of course, absolutely does endorse all of the following): slavery, racial discrimination, sex discrimination, discrimination against homosexuals, and the genocide of neighbors (Native Americans were our Canaanites). Your religion may not be responsible for all of these practices starting, but it is unquestionably the reason they endured as long as they did.

Your religion's teachings are responsible for the violent deaths and persecution of millions of people in the United States over centuries, and you have the nerve to blame school shootings on secularism?