(July 1, 2013 at 6:30 am)Zen Badger Wrote: I get it now, this is gods way of saying look what you made me do.

So god is really a Jewish mother(or an emo, I'm not quite sure)

-Or-
This is God's way of showing you what it cost. In order for us to understand we have to relate. We understand tremendous physical pain and a horrible death. Now we can somewhat understand the Spiritual cost of Atonement. In that it wasn't just an after thought or something as easy as flipping on a switch. There was a great cost. This is the sacrifice. Not the physical death you all keep asking about, but in what the physical death and beating represented.
As a result of this understanding, then one can phathom why God's grace and mercy does not extend to them in their own pride. (God humbled Himself to make the sacrifice, in turn we must humble ourselves to accept it.)

(July 1, 2013 at 9:27 am)Drich Wrote: We understand tremendous physical pain and a horrible death. Now we can somewhat understand the Spiritual cost of Atonement. In that it wasn't just an after thought or something as easy as flipping on a switch. There was a great cost. This is the sacrifice.

And yet I can forgive others without having to kill my own son or bleed all over a cross.

Not that such activities would in any way enhance one's ability to forgive (the point of the question in the OP) but why am I more capable of forgiving than your god?

Does your god make the rules or not? Is there a higher power or stronger force that outranks your god and requires a "great cost" to atonement?

(July 1, 2013 at 9:27 am)Drich Wrote: -Or-
This is God's way of showing you what it cost. In order for us to understand we have to relate. We understand tremendous physical pain and a horrible death. Now we can somewhat understand the Spiritual cost of Atonement. In that it wasn't just an after thought or something as easy as flipping on a switch. There was a great cost. This is the sacrifice. Not the physical death you all keep asking about, but in what the physical death and beating represented.
As a result of this understanding, then one can phathom why God's grace and mercy does not extend to them in their own pride. (God humbled Himself to make the sacrifice, in turn we must humble ourselves to accept it.)

A halfway decent writer could represent this concept without needing to go through the whole rigmarole. It is astounding to me that the writers of the bible A: were not capable of this, and B: thought it would not be enough.

(July 1, 2013 at 10:12 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 1, 2013 at 9:27 am)Drich Wrote: -Or-
This is God's way of showing you what it cost. In order for us to understand we have to relate. We understand tremendous physical pain and a horrible death. Now we can somewhat understand the Spiritual cost of Atonement. In that it wasn't just an after thought or something as easy as flipping on a switch. There was a great cost. This is the sacrifice. Not the physical death you all keep asking about, but in what the physical death and beating represented.
As a result of this understanding, then one can phathom why God's grace and mercy does not extend to them in their own pride. (God humbled Himself to make the sacrifice, in turn we must humble ourselves to accept it.)

A halfway decent writer could represent this concept without needing to go through the whole rigmarole. It is astounding to me that the writers of the bible A: were not capable of this, and B: thought it would not be enough.

Thought this one through to the end did you?

...So who would read what had been written? You are aware that 95% of the 1st century population was illeritate don't you?

(July 1, 2013 at 11:54 am)Drich Wrote: ...So who would read what had been written? You are aware that 95% of the 1st century population was illeritate don't you?

He did not mention anything about the readers, you dimwit. He mentioned the writers, who were literate, and could have done a much better job had their imaginations been even halfway decent.

(July 1, 2013 at 9:41 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: And yet I can forgive others without having to kill my own son or bleed all over a cross.

Could you forgive someone who raped you? What if they had raped you 3 times a day for 10 years? What if they raped 3 times a day for 30 years? What if they are still raping you, and will continue to do so for the rest of your life? Now what if the whole planet decided to do that? Now what if every man woman and child who ever lived or ever will live did that every day their whole lives? Could you just forgive everyone each time they did that for as long as they lived?

When you compare apples to apples you will find your ablity to forgive is conditional, and very limited. God's forgiveness is also conditional (in that you must accept it on his terms) but is limitless. It is limitless because of what He endured to provide true limitless forgiveness, for the whole world. not just one or two people that have wronged you a couple of times.

Quote:Not that such activities would in any way enhance one's ability to forgive (the point of the question in the OP) but why am I more capable of forgiving than your god?

I seriously doubt you can drive to work and not get angry if someone cut you off repeatedly, let alone truly forgive the sins of the whole world.

Quote:Does your god make the rules or not? Is there a higher power or stronger force that outranks your god and requires a "great cost" to atonement?

I don't understand your question. Why would there be anything greater?

(July 1, 2013 at 11:58 am)Maelstrom Wrote:

(July 1, 2013 at 11:54 am)Drich Wrote: ...So who would read what had been written? You are aware that 95% of the 1st century population was illeritate don't you?

He did not mention anything about the readers, you dimwit. He mentioned the writers, who were literate, and could have done a much better job had their imaginations been even halfway decent.

Thought this through to the end did you?

If there are no readers then to whom are the writters writting? Without followers (Readers in this case) your Great story dies off in a few generations. Where are ALL of the great stories of the forgotten gods of the conquored people Rome subjugated? Thier gods stories were all concocted and written down, so where are they?


Without worshipers, these gods are forgotten, unless there is a binigne intrest in their stories, or a desire to perserve an ancient culture.

So that Should point you to the common sense question that I was asking:
Just because you have a good story, it does not mean anyone will be around to read it, especially if 95% of the people can not read or write. If there is no one to read it then your Nobel prize winning story will have been lost to time.

Maybe that is why Christianity did not start out that way. (As so many of you good people are willing to point out.)

(July 1, 2013 at 12:05 pm)Drich Wrote: Could you forgive someone who raped you? What if they had raped you 3 times a day for 10 years? What if they raped 3 times a day for 30 years? What if they are still raping you, and will continue to do so for the rest of your life? Now what if the whole planet decided to do that? Now what if every man woman and child who ever lived or ever will live did that every day their whole lives? Could you just forgive everyone each time they did that for as long as they lived?

Melodramatic much?

I just want to reassure you that I've never raped Jesus or anyone else. I've never even met Jesus, though I understand he's anxious to have a personal relationship with me. They say he'll tell me to depart from him for he never knew me, like it's my fault he never introduced himself or he's so damn shy.

Quote:When you compare apples to apples you will find your ablity to forgive is conditional, and very limited.

True. I forgive those who apologize and seek to make amends.

I still don't have to murder my son over it or bleed on a cross to accomplish it.

Quote:I seriously doubt you can drive to work and not get angry if someone cut you off repeatedly, let alone truly forgive the sins of the whole world.

I've never cut Jesus off once on the road. Neither do I spend a lot of time brooding over how messed up the world is. However, I do forgive my fellow humans, knowing we're doing the best we can for want of a personal god that could give us some simple directions.

Hey, I know, how about your god announce in a booming voice over the Middle-East to knock off all the killing in his name. Then he can send down the One True Holy Book of the One True Religion. Literally, it can float down in a column of light with unseen angels singing the Hallelujah Chorus. That one act alone would do much to solve the problems of this world. This would be much more productive than bleeding on a cross 2000 years ago.

Quote:I don't understand your question. Why would there be anything greater?

What requires your god to perform this act of bleeding on a cross to try to make everything better?

(July 1, 2013 at 1:18 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I've never cut Jesus off once on the road.

Good, because that'd be a pretty awkward moment:

DP: Sorry about cutting you off, Jesus.

Jesus: Don't worry about it.

DP: I just felt bad about it, is all.

Jesus: Look, everyone else in the world is raping me three times a day, alright? THREE TIMES A DAY. Getting cut off in traffic is no great shakes.

DP: Uh... I think I'm late for work.

(July 1, 2013 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote: If there are no readers then to whom are the writters writting?

The writer's of the bible wrote it for several reasons. For themselves and those few others who could read. It was also written as a form of communication between preacher, who could read, and the layman who could not read. Any writer also writes so that his work lives on into the future. What the writers probably did not count on, however, was for the layman to grow smart by learning to become literate and realizing what a piece of crap fiction the entire bible is.