(July 4, 2013 at 10:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's design, how His design works is beyond all of us, if it wasn't we would not be arguing about this.

(July 4, 2013 at 10:59 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 9:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: What do you imagine stops it?

God's design, how His design works is beyond all of us, if it wasn't we would not be arguing about this.

If it's beyond us, then by definition it's beyond you too, so where do you get off making any declarative statements about it, like, say, that your god didn't use evolution as his mechanism of creation?

And how can you possibly say that his word leads to eternal life? It's beyond us, right? Hell, maybe god has some really good reason to feature in his design a series of heuristics that make it so we would, inevitably, create a number of false divine books filled with lies, of which the bible is one. Maybe he's having another bet, like he did regarding Job, and we're just losing for his side.

It's all beyond us, after all. Right?

(July 5, 2013 at 3:07 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 10:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's design, how His design works is beyond all of us, if it wasn't we would not be arguing about this.

If it's beyond us, then by definition it's beyond you too, so where do you get off making any declarative statements about it, like, say, that your god didn't use evolution as his mechanism of creation?

And how can you possibly say that his word leads to eternal life? It's beyond us, right? Hell, maybe god has some really good reason to feature in his design a series of heuristics that make it so we would, inevitably, create a number of false divine books filled with lies, of which the bible is one. Maybe he's having another bet, like he did regarding Job, and we're just losing for his side.

It's all beyond us, after all. Right?

Hate to butt in here...but when your quote is in an atheists signature you have open access.

How would "you" know God's design? Even have an inkling of it?

You first need to acknowledge Jesus. For He is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."

At the very least, we Christians have a path to walk. You? If God was in front of you, you wouldn't believe Him.

If He said to you, "I love you so much, that I paid the price for sin." You would laugh in His face.

Because you just don't "want" to understand! You know everything! As your very appropriate signature states... "there is no one more important to you, than you."

Blind seekers! Asking question after question...but don't want answers. Because you have no need for God. He's a crimp in your move! A thorn in your side. A reason to hate.

And until you profess your faith in Jesus, by saying: "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." You will remain blind to the Truth.

You make fun of us Christians...but you have no idea what it is to be in the Lords Grace! TOTALLY CLUELESS! Well...if not for the LOVE of Jesus, we would be the ones laughing at YOU!

You see...we were once like YOU....and to be honest? IT SUCKED!

(July 5, 2013 at 9:52 am)ronedee Wrote: How would "you" know God's design? Even have an inkling of it?

You first need to acknowledge Jesus. For He is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."

... Except if, as I detailed, the creator has a really excellent reason to lie. Maybe it's a part of his plan. Maybe something was off in the mind he constructed leading to misinterpretation or mistranslation of his words to a human mind, but he's too concerned about free will to alter it. Maybe satan's been tricking you from the beginning. Maybe a whole bunch of things.

See, you guys make a big show of putting god on the Unknowable shelf to keep him free from criticism, but at the same time, that very shelf puts a big question mark next to anything you guys want to say you know about him. If he's unknowable, if his plans for the universe are so vast as to be beyond comprehension, if his ways are indeed mysterious, then you guys know pretty much the same things about him as we do, and that amounts to approximately nothing.

So, when you say that jesus is the way, the truth and what have you, you have no justification for believing that to be true, because for all you know, god was just doing his Job thing again and trying to temp mankind away from him with a false messiah, and you guys all fell for it. You could all be hellbound for being christians. Do you know more than your god?

Quote:At the very least, we Christians have a path to walk. You? If God was in front of you, you wouldn't believe Him.

I would have questions. And depending on the answers, I may or may not consider him worthy of worship.

Don't presume to tell me what I believe.

Quote:If He said to you, "I love you so much, that I paid the price for sin." You would laugh in His face.

This would prompt additional questions, and a certain amount of puzzlement, given how inefficient this whole sacrifice gig is, but not outright scorn. See, unlike you, I don't assume I know everything right off the bat. There could be something to this I don't yet understand.

Quote:Because you just don't "want" to understand!

I would need to be shown something to indicate to me that this god thing is worth investigation. Oddly enough, so far theists have only presented me with, well, petty bullshit like you are right now.

Quote: You know everything!

I know very little for certain. But I know enough to know that. I don't make presuppositions about reality, after all; that's the game of the religious.

Quote: As your very appropriate signature states... "there is no one more important to you, than you."

You wrote that about me. I don't think it's a terribly accurate summation, especially given that in the post after it in the thread it came from, I linked you to the charity I belong to, but I guess that fact would get in the way of your proselytizing idiocy, so you pretended it didn't exist.

I did, however, find it to be a hilarious example of theistic hyperbole, so into the sig it went.

Quote:Blind seekers! Asking question after question...but don't want answers.

We want intelligent answers. I'm not surprised you don't have any.

Quote: Because you have no need for God. He's a crimp in your move! A thorn in your side. A reason to hate.

You're assuming a lot of things about me. Do you know me? If not, how can you possibly justify these things you say?

Quote:And until you profess your faith in Jesus, by saying: "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." You will remain blind to the Truth.

Until I buy into your dogma, I won't be given a reason to believe in your dogma. Not really how rationality works.

Quote:You make fun of us Christians...but you have no idea what it is to be in the Lords Grace! TOTALLY CLUELESS! Well...if not for the LOVE of Jesus, we would be the ones laughing at YOU!

Alright Pious Dan, get back to the parish, would you? This is starting to smell like preaching.

Quote:You see...we were once like YOU....and to be honest? IT SUCKED!

Then you were not like me. I'm quite happy. I have a wife that loves me, a nice place to live, a future to think of. I start a new job on monday. I even have a muffin with my name on it in the other room. So you see, my life's pretty good.

Please, do keep telling me what an awful person I must be. See, baseless presuppositions, slander and threats really convince me of your position. Keep going! Your circuitous, rude and presumptuous cajoling has almost inspired me to pick up a bible.

Onward christian soldier!

(July 5, 2013 at 9:52 am)ronedee Wrote: Hate to butt in here...but when your quote is in an atheists signature you have open access.

How would "you" know God's design? Even have an inkling of it?

You first need to acknowledge Jesus. For He is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."

At the very least, we Christians have a path to walk. You? If God was in front of you, you wouldn't believe Him.

If He said to you, "I love you so much, that I paid the price for sin." You would laugh in His face.

Because you just don't "want" to understand! You know everything! As your very appropriate signature states... "there is no one more important to you, than you."

Blind seekers! Asking question after question...but don't want answers. Because you have no need for God. He's a crimp in your move! A thorn in your side. A reason to hate.

And until you profess your faith in Jesus, by saying: "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." You will remain blind to the Truth.

You make fun of us Christians...but you have no idea what it is to be in the Lords Grace! TOTALLY CLUELESS! Well...if not for the LOVE of Jesus, we would be the ones laughing at YOU!

You see...we were once like YOU....and to be honest? IT SUCKED!

I think that is the longest ad hominem I've ever read.

I bet Jesus is proud.

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: ... Except if, as I detailed, the creator has a really excellent reason to lie. Maybe it's a part of his plan.

As a matter of fact, I just got a revelation from God!

It turns out that life really is a test, just as Theists keep claiming. What they got wrong is what the test is supposed to determine. You see, it turns out that there's only so much room in Heaven and God is competing with another rival creation in another dimension, so he needs only the best and brightest in Heaven.

This life was created as a test to see if we're capable of using critical thought and using our minds or if we just take the easy road of faith and GodDidIt. Consequently, only free thinkers are getting into Heaven. Sorry Christians.

You can believe me because God said so. And I have just as much proof as you do. So better renounce Christianity and embrace critical thought and skepticism or else you'll pay the price on Judgment Day.

[/snark, but with an important point that I hope is not lost]

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: ... Except if, as I detailed, the creator has a really excellent reason to lie. Maybe it's a part of his plan. Maybe something was off in the mind he constructed leading to misinterpretation or mistranslation of his words to a human mind, but he's too concerned about free will to alter it. Maybe satan's been tricking you from the beginning. Maybe a whole bunch of things.

See, you guys make a big show of putting god on the Unknowable shelf to keep him free from criticism, but at the same time, that very shelf puts a big question mark next to anything you guys want to say you know about him. If he's unknowable, if his plans for the universe are so vast as to be beyond comprehension, if his ways are indeed mysterious, then you guys know pretty much the same things about him as we do, and that amounts to approximately nothing.

So, when you say that jesus is the way, the truth and what have you, you have no justification for believing that to be true, because for all you know, god was just doing his Job thing again and trying to temp mankind away from him with a false messiah, and you guys all fell for it. You could all be hellbound for being christians. Do you know more than your god?

So... now you are telling me what I know? How is it somebody with so many, many questions and "maybe's"....knows so much about what he doesn't know?

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: I would have questions. And depending on the answers, I may or may not consider him worthy of worship.

Don't presume to tell me what I believe.

Do you believe even in your wildest dreams that GOD needs to answer to you? "One day...every knee will bend and every lip profess the Lord Jesus."

That day... I cannot wait for my friend!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: This would prompt additional questions, and a certain amount of puzzlement, given how inefficient this whole sacrifice gig is, but not outright scorn. See, unlike you, I don't assume I know everything right off the bat. There could be something to this I don't yet understand.

I see some glimmer of hope here my friend? If you could just ponder that one statement: "I love you so much, that I paid the price for sin." You may get the TRUE answer!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: I would need to be shown something to indicate to me that this god thing is worth investigation. Oddly enough, so far theists have only presented me with, well, petty bullshit like you are right now.

Its not petty BS otherwise you wouldn't be talking to me. IF you really want answers, ask! The real teacher isn't anyone you can see. Its the Holy Spirit which was sent after Jesus died, to teach ALL MEN! We are all students. There is only one teacher. Because there is only one who knows everything!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: I know very little for certain. But I know enough to know that. I don't make presuppositions about reality, after all; that's the game of the religious.

"REALITY" Have we not had this conversation before?! Everything is based on Theory. Reality is even a theory, and is in the eyes of the beholder!

And you've made persumptions about most everything [I've] said! At least I'll admit to mine!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: You wrote that about me. I don't think it's a terribly accurate summation, especially given that in the post after it in the thread it came from, I linked you to the charity I belong to, but I guess that fact would get in the way of your proselytizing idiocy, so you pretended it didn't exist.

I did, however, find it to be a hilarious example of theistic hyperbole, so into the sig it went.

So, you give to a charity and that makes you what? Do you want a list of the charities I have? Or the places I've gone to volunteer, and help? No!

I'm not that high on myself...nor do I feel its ever enough! And.... my purpose isn't for man's approval. "...For you have already received your reward, here on earth."

You can quote me anytime btw! That's almost as good as being on atheists' ignore list!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: We want intelligent answers. I'm not surprised you don't have any.

And what praytell is the intelligent answer that you are looking for? God in the form of an Quadratic Equation? Or so grand phenomenon in the sky? All would be deemed as a trick! That's why Jesus never performed miracles as proof! NEVER!

And that is why He came in humility. Because it's not about seeing with the mind...It's about seeing with the heart!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: You're assuming a lot of things about me. Do you know me? If not, how can you possibly justify these things you say?

I know what you don't have. I also know your motives. And they are not for answers. They are to tell me whats wrong with me. There are only 2 atheists that I met here that truely have open minds.

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: Until I buy into your dogma, I won't be given a reason to believe in your dogma. Not really how rationality works.

"Rationality"? ...see "Reality"

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: Alright Pious Dan, get back to the parish, would you? This is starting to smell like preaching.

I like using Jesus' words! No one has a good comeback!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: Then you were not like me. I'm quite happy. I have a wife that loves me, a nice place to live, a future to think of. I start a new job on monday. I even have a muffin with my name on it in the other room. So you see, my life's pretty good.

Hey I'm glad for you! I pray for you and the others every night! So, maybe God had something to do with your new job?

I wouldn't brag about that muffin.... Especially if you have a little one or a dog that's not house broken!

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: Please, do keep telling me what an awful person I must be. See, baseless presuppositions, slander and threats really convince me of your position. Keep going! Your circuitous, rude and presumptuous cajoling has almost inspired me to pick up a bible.

Onward christian soldier!

Ok! I do get excited once in a while! But I'm only guilty of presumption and being rude! It rubs off from being around here too much.

I didn't hate myself when I was without God... it just sucked! thats true [for me]. My life is much better now that I have Him. And I truely wish everyone could experience His Divine Love!

Seriously.... Good Luck with the new job! I hope..and pray, all works out for you!

(July 5, 2013 at 2:30 pm)ronedee Wrote: Do you believe even in your wildest dreams that GOD needs to answer to you? "One day...every knee will bend and every lip profess the Lord Jesus."

That day... I cannot wait for my friend!

Working on your "O face"?

(July 5, 2013 at 2:31 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 2:30 pm)ronedee Wrote: Do you believe even in your wildest dreams that GOD needs to answer to you? "One day...every knee will bend and every lip profess the Lord Jesus."

That day... I cannot wait for my friend!

Working on your "O face"?

a future so bright I'll need shades!

You on the other hand? Better bring a cooler!

(July 5, 2013 at 3:07 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 10:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's design, how His design works is beyond all of us, if it wasn't we would not be arguing about this.

If it's beyond us, then by definition it's beyond you too, so where do you get off making any declarative statements about it, like, say, that your god didn't use evolution as his mechanism of creation?

And how can you possibly say that his word leads to eternal life? It's beyond us, right? Hell, maybe god has some really good reason to feature in his design a series of heuristics that make it so we would, inevitably, create a number of false divine books filled with lies, of which the bible is one. Maybe he's having another bet, like he did regarding Job, and we're just losing for his side.

It's all beyond us, after all. Right?

Not all, when one is in a relationship with Him we are able to see His truths on those things that are important to our lives.

---

(July 5, 2013 at 11:55 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 9:52 am)ronedee Wrote: How would "you" know God's design? Even have an inkling of it?

You first need to acknowledge Jesus. For He is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."

... Except if, as I detailed, the creator has a really excellent reason to lie. Maybe it's a part of his plan. Maybe something was off in the mind he constructed leading to misinterpretation or mistranslation of his words to a human mind, but he's too concerned about free will to alter it. Maybe satan's been tricking you from the beginning. Maybe a whole bunch of things.

See, you guys make a big show of putting god on the Unknowable shelf to keep him free from criticism, but at the same time, that very shelf puts a big question mark next to anything you guys want to say you know about him. If he's unknowable, if his plans for the universe are so vast as to be beyond comprehension, if his ways are indeed mysterious, then you guys know pretty much the same things about him as we do, and that amounts to approximately nothing.

So, when you say that jesus is the way, the truth and what have you, you have no justification for believing that to be true, because for all you know, god was just doing his Job thing again and trying to temp mankind away from him with a false messiah, and you guys all fell for it. You could all be hellbound for being christians. Do you know more than your god?

We do not need to know more than God, we only need to know Him and accept what was done for us. Then we have the mind that created the universe to enlighten us, so the little drab and drool that escapes from your Satan controlled mouth can not nor does not impress us in the least, a thing we learned from Job.