Time and space came from something that was both timeless and spaceless.
This thing would have to be self-sufficient, since it had nothing to depend on before there was anything.
It is immaterial, because material came from it.
It is logical, since logic came from it.
It is good, since good came from it.
It is immutable i.e. unchanging, since from it came constants like logic.

Everything came from something, certainly. The probability of it being a deity is nil. There is absolutely nothing to infer that a deity is behind creation.

Pretty flowers does not equate to a creator.

So we've got a timeless, spaceless, immutable thing. What prevents it from being the thing worshipped as a deity?

(July 12, 2013 at 12:46 am)Consilius Wrote: What prevents it from being the thing worshipped as a deity?

Reason.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that the universe was created by a god that exists out of time and space. Logically, the causation of the universe has been proven to exist out of time and space.
A creator causes something to be created.
The causation of the universe has caused our universe to be created.
Yet we are wrong. Why?

(July 11, 2013 at 10:27 pm)Consilius Wrote: What I am suggesting is that there has always been an immaterial entity that has always had the power to create the physical from itself.

There's a lot of presupposing going on, and doing any of that is always a logical fallacy.

1. An entity existing from eternity to eternity.
2. That it is a creator.
3. How it creates.
4. That it is immaterial.
5. The immaterial deals with material objects.
6. That it has power, and always will.

If I presupposed the existence of Big Foot, I could potentially spend my entire life searching for him, making sense out of obscure clues, and fooling myself into believing that he HAS to be somewhere out there.

The reality is a bit more grim, but it doesn't take a lifetime to come to grips with it. Chances are, since there's no real proof to corroborate the existence of Big Foot, he's probably not real, and using reason to come to this conclusion takes mere moments instead of wasting time, energy, and resources trying to track down this Holy Grail of nature.

God is the same way in that people MUST presuppose that he exists. They search for him in a different manner, but the search can still last a lifetime.

If you cannot demonstrate proof of a god's existence, then fact stands that your claim remains as vapid as someone's claim in the existence of Big Foot.

(July 12, 2013 at 1:18 am)Consilius Wrote: Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that the universe was created by a god that exists out of time and space.

It is not true because a majority believe it is so.

(July 12, 2013 at 1:18 am)Consilius Wrote: Logically, the causation of the universe has been proven to exist out of time and space.

The causation has not been proven to be god. In fact, there is no logical cause for the universe to exist. It just does.

(July 12, 2013 at 1:18 am)Consilius Wrote: A creator causes something to be created.

Creations can exist without having been brought into existence by creators.

I am not presently equating the Christian God to the creator of the universe. I just said that the universe had a creator that was a lot like him. That is theism from the ground up.
And I thought you said that the universe needed a cause, and that science was looking to find it.

(July 12, 2013 at 2:01 am)Consilius Wrote: And I thought you said that the universe needed a cause, and that science was looking to find it.

I stated it is possible that science may one day discover the cause of the universe.

Yes. So the cause of the universe must exist.