(July 12, 2013 at 2:20 am)Consilius Wrote: Yes. So the cause of the universe must exist.

Unlike theism, which makes the claim that a creator is behind the causation of the universe, secular reasoning implies that the causation of the universe has no inherent meaning. The universe exists simply because it does, and its non-sentience seems too scary a thought for theists who decided to invent a deity that does care.

The universe is a material, finite thing with a cause, or an origin if you will, as everything else does. The universe is not eternal, as it will one day cease to exist. How it did it come into existence is simply a question with an answer. An answer we have the human desire to find out.
The universe cannot exist unquestionably. We must question everything. I think I have heard an answer that is logically justified.

The universe came from something.
This thing was good, invisible, unchanging, and is not limited by time and space. It is also immensely powerful, if not all-powerful.
This theory is not unprecedented. A nomadic people in the Middle East said the same. Note that I did not attach anything else in the Bible to my claims. These people worshipped a thing that brought the universe into being. It was also good, did not change, and was eternally omnipotent.
For that reason, I believe them to have been right.

Maelstrom: "there is no reason"
Reason presented
Maelstrom (without addressing the reason): "there is no reason"

(July 11, 2013 at 6:09 pm)Consilius Wrote: The nature of good is invisible, personal, immutable, eternal, and universal.

Please tell me this is a joke, and you didn't actually think this was anything close to proof of anything.

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(July 12, 2013 at 6:06 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Maelstrom: "there is no reason"
Reason Unfounded assertions presented
Maelstrom (without addressing the reason): "there is no reason"

FTFY.

(July 12, 2013 at 10:16 am)Faith No More Wrote:

(July 11, 2013 at 6:09 pm)Consilius Wrote: The nature of good is invisible, personal, immutable, eternal, and universal.

Please tell me this is a joke, and you didn't actually think this was anything close to proof of anything.

He doesn't understand what counts as demonstrable proof, and that's why he keeps falling back on dogmatic replies.

(July 12, 2013 at 2:48 am)Consilius Wrote: The universe is a material, finite thing with a cause, or an origin if you will, as everything else does. The universe is not eternal, as it will one day cease to exist.

And you can demonstrate either of these points to be true... how?

Quote: How it did it come into existence is simply a question with an answer. An answer we have the human desire to find out.

Or if it came into existence. Don't discount the honest possibilities just because they don't fit into your presuppositions.

Quote:The universe cannot exist unquestionably. We must question everything. I think I have heard an answer that is logically justified.

And I see from your replies thus far that you are very willing to question the answer you've arrived at.

Quote:The universe came from something.

How do you know?

Quote:This thing was good, invisible, unchanging, and is not limited by time and space. It is also immensely powerful, if not all-powerful.

How do you know?

Quote:This theory is not unprecedented. A nomadic people in the Middle East said the same.

So what?

Quote: Note that I did not attach anything else in the Bible to my claims.

Yeah, because that would be unreasonable.

Quote:These people worshipped a thing that brought the universe into being. It was also good, did not change, and was eternally omnipotent.
For that reason, I believe them to have been right.

For what reason? You haven't given one. You've asserted your beliefs about the universe, that's all. You've made the claim, you haven't given your justification for it at all.

Unless you actually think that because ancient middle eastern tribes worshiped something, it's therefore true. I really hope that wasn't the reason you were thinking of.

(July 12, 2013 at 2:48 am)Consilius Wrote: The universe is a material, finite thing with a cause, or an origin if you will, as everything else does. The universe is not eternal, as it will one day cease to exist.

Actually we aren't all that sure about that yet, or how exactly it'll end or what constitutes and "end". So right off the bat you're making an assumption and treating it as completely true.

Quote:How it did it come into existence is simply a question with an answer. An answer we have the human desire to find out.

Some of us do, some aren't concerned (such as yourself).

Quote:The universe cannot exist unquestionably. We must question everything. I think I have heard an answer that is logically justified.

This is where you went completely off track.

Quote:The universe came from something.

Assumption.

Quote:This thing was good, invisible, unchanging, and is not limited by time and space. It is also immensely powerful, if not all-powerful.

Crazier assumption.

Quote:This theory is not unprecedented. A nomadic people in the Middle East said the same. Note that I did not attach anything else in the Bible to my claims. These people worshipped a thing that brought the universe into being. It was also good, did not change, and was eternally omnipotent.
For that reason, I believe them to have been right.

I'm going to pretend like this part did not happen, ok?

The mistake you made, was to assume that you have thought of every possible scenario, and know everything about the physical nature of our universe.

You came up with an "explanation", that fits into your "current knowledge" of the universe and you think that must be it.

Let's assume for one moment that your "current knowledge" is actually completely correct. Even so, how can you know that you've thought of every possible scenario? Because multiple scenarios can be possible, but one would be correct. More importantly, how can you convince us that you've thought of every possible scenario? There exists millions of things yet to be imagined by the human mind. So this is a complete fail.

Not to mention that you've demonstrated you're not quite up to date with astronomy and physics so your "current knowledge" probably does not resemble reality.

So the universe has no origin anymore? I thought it all started with a Big Bang 4 billion years ago. From there, however, you don't know where to go.
Or is our universe ITSELF eternal? Then again, we know that it will cease to exist at one point.

(July 12, 2013 at 7:23 pm)Consilius Wrote: So the universe has no origin anymore? I thought it all started with a Big Bang 4 billion years ago. From there, however, you don't know where to go.
Or is our universe ITSELF eternal? Then again, we know that it will cease to exist at one point.

i was referring to the universe ending. universe has an origin yes.

see, there you go again, repeating exactly what you said about the universe ending even after i offered opposing information. go ahead, repeat yourself again while replying to this.

OK, the universe had an origin. Where did the universe come from? How did it come to be?