(July 15, 2013 at 8:34 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(July 15, 2013 at 8:15 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: If we could go back in time to before the Big Bang, we would probably STILL experience time. Our bodies are such that we can observe time's passage, so I don't see why that same principle wouldn't apply.

I'd say that such an experience would be smuggled in by the "if" and "before".

Alley oop! Thanks for the assist.

Just note that I'm no theoretical physicist, nor will I pretend to be one. Same goes with my knowledge of philosophy: it's interesting, but I'm no expert. When I say anything, I do so because I either know this thing for a fact and have evidence to support my points, or I'm posing a hypothetical (and I did use the word "if" when talking about possibilities of events prior to the Big Bang).

I'm not saying you have to be all real, rational, and down-to-earth like me...I'm just saying you should.

Hey we're all real, down to earth and rational here Mr party! :p

If we're calling the big bang the starting point, and assuming with the majority of scientists (because I just read that on Wikipedia :p) that this is the most likely scenario (although nothing is set in stone), then we also assume that time didn't exist before this point. There's no count down below zero (multiple universes accepted, which only postpones the singularity to an earlier time/ or repeats it, take your pick.)
As a time constrained being, how could you exist before time?

Everything that happens in our universe has a cause. Our understanding of cause and effect comes from every single one of our experiences on this planet, and everywhere else in our universe.
How, then, can the vessel of all cause and effect itself not follow the laws of cause and effect?

(July 15, 2013 at 10:33 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Hey we're all real, down to earth and rational here Mr party! :p

If we're calling the big bang the starting point, and assuming with the majority of scientists (because I just read that on Wikipedia :p) that this is the most likely scenario (although nothing is set in stone), then we also assume that time didn't exist before this point. There's no count down below zero (multiple universes accepted, which only postpones the singularity to an earlier time/ or repeats it, take your pick.)
As a time constrained being, how could you exist before time?

I suppose it's the same way anything could exist before this event called the Big Bang. We don't know what happened before, so all we can do is speculate.

How do you know that time didn't pass prior to the Big Bang? Say...in the great big nothingness void of empty black, couldn't there have been an actual countdown to the event? Sure, there was no one there to count it. I'm just not too keen on saying with absolute certainty that there was no time before the beginning of the universe. There is no way anyone could know that for certain. That's not too unreasonable of me to say that, is it?

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(July 15, 2013 at 10:42 am)Consilius Wrote: Everything that happens in our universe has a cause. Our understanding of cause and effect comes from every single one of our experiences on this planet, and everywhere else in our universe.
How, then, can the vessel of all cause and effect itself not follow the laws of cause and effect?

How about you answer your own question this time since history has shown that you are not okay with anyone else's?

(July 15, 2013 at 10:42 am)Consilius Wrote: Everything that happens in our universe has a cause. Our understanding of cause and effect comes from every single one of our experiences on this planet, and everywhere else in our universe.
How, then, can the vessel of all cause and effect itself not follow the laws of cause and effect?

In that case, how can the vessel of the vessel of cause and effect not also follow those laws?

Once again, special pleading is not a pathway to truth.

(July 15, 2013 at 10:45 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: There is no way anyone could know that for certain. That's not too unreasonable of me to say that, is it?

Yes

"bats Mr party around the head*

Real answer: no. That's why we say things like 'most probable' and 'consensus of great thinkers /experts on the subject'.

Nothing is written in stone here. No one is coming to fit your new straight jacket over this. We're talking good solid justified theory where 1+1=2. We make some logical observations, like the existence of everything in reality being logical, and then extend that to assume that this has always been the case, and that we can understand that the universe had a logical cause. For example.

(July 15, 2013 at 10:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(July 15, 2013 at 10:45 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: There is no way anyone could know that for certain. That's not too unreasonable of me to say that, is it?

Yes

"bats Mr party around the head*

Real answer: no. That's why we say things like 'most probable' and 'consensus of great thinkers /experts on the subject'.

Nothing is written in stone here. No one is coming to fit your new straight jacket over this. We're talking good solid justified theory where 1+1=2. We make some logical observations, like the existence of everything in reality being logical, and then extend that to assume that this has always been the case, and that we can understand that the universe had a logical cause. For example.

Why is your real answer "no" if you then turn around and say "Nothing is written in stone here." That completely validates what I said: "There's no way anyone can know that for certain." I think you wanted to disagree with me on principle, but then your last paragraph agreed with me (or at least it agrees with what I'm trying to convey...perhaps you and I have a small communication break-down going on here).

You're right that those logical observations get us some pretty good approximations of what occurred, occurs, and will occur. Perhaps you know something more than I do about what happened before the Big Bang?

With 'no' i was agreeing with you. Yes, we don't know. We're talking a best guess.

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(July 15, 2013 at 11:06 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Perhaps you know something more than I do about what happened before the Big Bang?

Yes I was totally there man :p

There can't have been anything before, or it wouldn't be the big bang. Time started ticking at that point. 'Before' needs time to have any meaning.

Roger. I guess if you jumped in a spaceship time machine and wound back the clock to just before the event, you can tell me for a certainty that since there was no time before the Big Bang, you wouldn't be able to watch it occur from within the confines of your cockpit, sipping on a wine cooler while listening to some AC/DC, feet up on the console? Or would you just not feel time pass until the hour of the bang is upon you?

I'm travelling backwards in my time machine and then I hit zero. Everything freezes. I cannot travel past zero.
Luckily I programmed an auto reverse and everything unfroze.