(July 27, 2013 at 6:57 am)Rationalman Wrote: If the tree that Adam and Eve ate from truly was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that surely means they had no understanding of good and evil before they eat from the tree. So when they disobeyed God and ate from the tree, surely it wasn't their fault because they didn't know any better?

Indeed, they lacked wisdom by design. If they played the role of obedient, unquestioning puppets, they'd be okay. If they used the intellect and curiosity that they'd been designed with and acted freely, they would be punished. They weren't supposed to think for themselves.

One imagines that the Garden of Eden was actually one of those hedge mazes, and humanity was meant to wander it endlessly according to the strict path given them. To deviate even once meant catastrophe. The Bible shows that thinking for yourself leads to disaster. Just follow orders and you'll be fine.

(July 28, 2013 at 8:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your eternal life belongs to you, where you wind up depends solely on you, you had the teaching and rejected it, no one to blame other than you.

So you wash your hands of me?

That's pretty freaking cold.

Don't leave me here. Save me GC. Do the Lord's good work. Don't just walk away you cold hearted bastard. Fucking save me.

(July 29, 2013 at 7:45 am)Rahul Wrote:

(July 28, 2013 at 8:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your eternal life belongs to you, where you wind up depends solely on you, you had the teaching and rejected it, no one to blame other than you.

So you wash your hands of me?

That's pretty freaking cold.

Don't leave me here. Save me GC. Do the Lord's good work. Don't just walk away you cold hearted bastard. Fucking save me.

It's easy man. Just agree with everything GC tells you and ensure he's got your bank account details on file whenever he needs a donation to go to Mykanos to procure a pair of assless chaps.

(July 29, 2013 at 3:54 am)ITChick Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 3:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: When asked why, well you did not explain why . Is telling someone not to by their superior not enough, why do people not understand why a person has a position above their's.

As rational mentioned, that is redicilous. I expect my employees to question me. My managers expect me to question them. A "because I say so" attitude does not work in the workplace - no wonder the guys under you do stupid things.

The only people I listen to with very little questions are those that have more knowledge in an area than I do (like the networking guys). They tend to be several levels below me and earn 1/4 of my salary.

You have no idea what you're talking about, you do not know the situations, and in the end my crews were better than the others and we were all known as good in our field, even by other companies. What makes you think I did not have considerable more knowledge than those below me. My guys may have at times not liked me, but they enjoyed being know as one of the best crews in our type of work, and they most definitely liked it when I to the flack for their screw ups, I protected my guys. There is no need to go any further with this it has nothing to do with the OP.

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(July 29, 2013 at 7:45 am)Rahul Wrote:

(July 28, 2013 at 8:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your eternal life belongs to you, where you wind up depends solely on you, you had the teaching and rejected it, no one to blame other than you.

So you wash your hands of me?

That's pretty freaking cold.

Don't leave me here. Save me GC. Do the Lord's good work. Don't just walk away you cold hearted bastard. Fucking save me.

Jesus told us to kick the dust of our shoes and move on when the message is rejected. Maybe He'll send you someone else. If you want saved you'll have to go to your knees before the Lord, you've seen it you know what has to be done do it or stop being a liar, you know what the scriptures say about liars.

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(July 29, 2013 at 5:47 am)Tonus Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 6:57 am)Rationalman Wrote: If the tree that Adam and Eve ate from truly was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that surely means they had no understanding of good and evil before they eat from the tree. So when they disobeyed God and ate from the tree, surely it wasn't their fault because they didn't know any better?

Indeed, they lacked wisdom by design. If they played the role of obedient, unquestioning puppets, they'd be okay. If they used the intellect and curiosity that they'd been designed with and acted freely, they would be punished. They weren't supposed to think for themselves.

One imagines that the Garden of Eden was actually one of those hedge mazes, and humanity was meant to wander it endlessly according to the strict path given them. To deviate even once meant catastrophe. The Bible shows that thinking for yourself leads to disaster. Just follow orders and you'll be fine.

There was only one deviation they had to avoid, no other rules were given to them. One would think that when God came and they were hiding, one would see they knew they had messed up and lost all they had, one would think that any how. Unless one desires to ignore their actions or close there eyes to the real story.

(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: If you want saved you'll have to go to your knees before the Lord, you've seen it you know what has to be done do it or stop being a liar, you know what the scriptures say about liars.

Now look at Ray Comfort: The biggest liar in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj5EVZpi2FM

(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: There was only one deviation they had to avoid, no other rules were given to them. One would think that when God came and they were hiding, one would see they knew they had messed up and lost all they had, one would think that any how. Unless one desires to ignore their actions or close there eyes to the real story.

My point was that they did not know good from evil; they were not expected to obey for any other reason than that they had been ordered to obey. When did Eve find the fruit of the tree to be desirable? When the serpent told her that she would suffer no ill consequences from eating it. She was not conditioned to understand why a course of action was right or wrong, so when the serpent implied that she could eat the fruit without worry she could not have seen it as an unwise course of action.

They did not realize they had messed up until after their eyes were opened to the understanding of right and wrong, which apparently was only possible if they ate from the fruit. So they were designed to be obedient automatons unless they ate from the fruit, which would automatically do two things: first, it would allow them to understand right from wrong. Second, it would condemn them to death. Nasty, nasty fellow, that Yahweh.

(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: Jesus told us to kick the dust of our shoes and move on when the message is rejected. Maybe He'll send you someone else. If you want saved you'll have to go to your knees before the Lord, you've seen it you know what has to be done do it or stop being a liar, you know what the scriptures say about liars.

Why do you think I first joined an Atheist forum all those years ago? I wanted some Christian to tell me how my thoughts about it were wrong.

But none of you can. At least not yet.

I'm not unwilling. I don't want to cease to exist. I want to be in Heaven with a mind like God. To know everything.

(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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There was only one deviation they had to avoid, no other rules were given to them. One would think that when God came and they were hiding, one would see they knew they had messed up and lost all they had, one would think that any how. Unless one desires to ignore their actions or close there eyes to the real story.

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Tonus Wrote:My point was that they did not know good from evil;

Right. Was there a need for them to?

Tonus Wrote:they were not expected to obey for any other reason than that they had been ordered to obey.

Disagree, they were not ordered, they were given a commandment and were given the consequences for a wrong action. If there is consequences for an action there is choice.

Tonus Wrote:When did Eve find the fruit of the tree to be desirable? When the serpent told her that she would suffer no ill consequences from eating it.

Right, but the serpent lied to her. She knew what God had told her.

Tonus Wrote:She was not conditioned to understand why a course of action was right or wrong, so when the serpent implied that she could eat the fruit without worry she could not have seen it as an unwise course of action.

Disagree, she understood eating the fruit was wrong, she explained to the serpent the consequences God had laid out, she understood it was wrong. Remember God walked with them in the Garden, when God walks with someone they are growing in a relationship with Him ie. Enoch, God was teaching them. When you look at scripture when God was with someone ie. Moses He was teaching.

Tonus Wrote:They did not realize they had messed up until after their eyes were opened to the understanding of right and wrong, which apparently was only possible if they ate from the fruit.

You are probably right since we take the effect of eating the fruit as immediate. I disagree with they did not know what was right or wrong, they understood the consequence of disobeying. Little children know right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.

Tonus Wrote:So they were designed to be obedient automatons unless they ate from the fruit, which would automatically do two things: first, it would allow them to understand right from wrong. Second, it would condemn them to death. Nasty, nasty fellow, that Yahweh.

No, totally disagree, the were created to be beings of free will, just as the angels were. Eating the fruit from the tree, they came to know what was evil, murder, stealing, disobedience and they now realized what sin was and how it hurt God, that's why they were hiding from God, as if they could. They knew the consequences of disobedience, and they learned what good and evil were, they already understood right from wrong, eating the fruit opened their eyes to the evil of disobedience.

(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: There was only one deviation they had to avoid, no other rules were given to them.

Heh, lovely. According to this logic, eating the fruit was wrong, but if Adam had, say, dismembered Eve, he would have been perfectly fine. No other rules, right?

Quote:One would think that when God came and they were hiding, one would see they knew they had messed up and lost all they had, one would think that any how. Unless one desires to ignore their actions or close there eyes to the real story.

Could this be, perhaps, because they had just been imbued with knowledge of good and evil, and thus knew that what they had done was wrong for the first time? Who is being willfully blind, here?

(July 29, 2013 at 11:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: Right. Was there a need for them to?

That's a good point, I am not sure. As the human population grew and communities and societies developed, would it have been enough to not eat from a particular tree, or would more complex sets of behavioral codes have been needed?

Quote:Disagree, they were not ordered, they were given a commandment and were given the consequences for a wrong action. If there is consequences for an action there is choice.

But without a sense of right and wrong, the only reason for them to obey was the threat of death.

Quote:Right, but the serpent lied to her. She knew what God had told her.

That was my point. God told her, but gave her no reason to understand why. Thus, she was susceptible to deception when the serpent made up a reason. I think she would have been better prepared for the serpent's trickery had she understood why god did not want her to eat from the fruit of that tree.

Quote:Disagree, she understood eating the fruit was wrong, she explained to the serpent the consequences God had laid out, she understood it was wrong.

Without knowledge of good and evil, I don't see how she could comprehend that eating the fruit was wrong. She knew that she was told she must not eat from it, but the only reason was the threat of death. Normally this threat would be sufficient to scare a person into compliance. That she was so easily convinced to eat from it by a simple argument would imply that she lacked something necessary for making proper decisions. Same with Adam, who also ate from the fruit when offered some by Eve.

Quote:You are probably right since we take the effect of eating the fruit as immediate. I disagree with they did not know what was right or wrong, they understood the consequence of disobeying. Little children know right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.

Children learn that through experience and through development of their sense of empathy. As the only two humans around, Adam and Eve were reliant on god himself to help them develop a sense of right and wrong. And in spite of being perfect, and of being in a direct relationship with their creator, they failed a seemingly simple test.

I like the way the JWs interpret the story of Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden. To them, the fruit had no special inherent qualities; eating from it would not suddenly fill their minds with knowledge of anything. The tree could have been any tree in the garden. What it represented was the important thing-- god's right to tell humanity what to do because he knew best. For as long as they did not eat from that tree, Adam and Eve were recognizing that god was the boss. When they ate from it, they were telling god that they could decide for themselves what was right or wrong; they were rejecting his right to rule them.

Mind you, that approach has plenty of flaws of its own. But the idea of the tree being a symbol sounds much better than the idea that god put a tree with magic fruit that would allow man (or Satan, through an act of man) to derail his plans so easily. One of the most obvious flaws is that it conflicts with the claim that there was also a tree of life, whose fruit would keep them alive indefinitely. Which is probably why JWs tend to gloss over that particular part of the story, heh.