(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Argumentum ad populum?

Seriously?

I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

I love how you took something that you don't believe and used it to prop up something that you do believe..........Your a slippery one Drich.


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(September 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm)pocaracas Wrote: That's why, to me, proof of the existence of the god of the bible comes in the form of it showing itself to everyone on the planet and imparting some of its knowledge...
If the guy only shows up to a handful of people, then you can't rule out any psychological effect... a vivid imagination... or plain lying.

And if God has done this, and everyone know there to be a God? I have observed only those who wish to go out of their way to not believe in God can do so.

If everyone "knows" that god exists, then what need is there for belief... or lack thereof?

(September 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm)Drich Wrote: Put what you believe aside for a moment and just look at the numbers of those who believe in a version of God verses those who don't. Again to me God has given us all a basic understanding of Him.

What is God to do with them?

Is He obligated to force Himself upon them?

It only serves to show that most people in the world follow what their ancestors were led to believe, due to sheer ignorance and gullibility.
We are, today, living a great time, a time of enlightenment, the age of information. It's possible that the majority of the human population today has access to information that was unthinkable just some 50 years ago... that's almost only one generation ago!
The wrong thinking of dozens of generations cannot be erased in one single generation... it's a slow-ish process. People like you will become less and less, because most will have access to the information that correctly categorizes whatever supernatural experiences they may think they have.


If there is a god like the one you wish exists, and it does want everyone on this planet to acknowledge that it does exist, then I fail to understand why would such a being hide itself, thus preventing a growing portion of humanity from acknowledging such existence. OH, but you've replied to this before.... if people knew about god, then they'd have no choice, no free will, on this particular seemingly very important matter... If it's that important, then I don't want my choice to be based on 1)where I'm born; 2)When I'm born; 3)Who I talk to; 4)other people (I know that these are somewhat redundant, but it's mostly to illustrate the point). Nor should anyone else's choice be based on such fallible and shaky grounds.

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote: I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

You're propping up your claim by pointing out that the majority believes it. That's ad populum.

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Argumentum ad populum?

Seriously?

I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

OHOOHOHOHOHOHOH


From wiki which got it's info here:


Which god was that?

(September 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm)Drich Wrote: I know I've told you at least 1/2 a dozen times now.

Ask/Seek/Knock as out lined in luke 11:
5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

If you receive the Holy Spirit/If you receive a measure of God to indewell you. What better proof of God than God Himself?

I just asked him and did not receive any part of the holy spirit. The above is bullshit.

(September 17, 2013 at 3:49 pm)tokutter Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote: I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

I love how you took something that you don't believe and used it to prop up something that you do believe..........Your a slippery one Drich.


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What I believe is God puts a god shaped hole in all of our hearts, and itis up to us to fill that hole with God.

Some fill that God shaped hole with the only god they have around them, but yearn for more. while others are simply content with a patch the hole with the religion of their fathers. Then there are those who are simply in rebellion and go against everything in them that says there is a God, leaving those who earnestly seek God forsaking everything else.

Ultimatly circumstance along with a desire to either worship ourselves, to worship a method of worship, or a desire to worship God will determine what you believe.

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(September 17, 2013 at 4:17 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If everyone "knows" that god exists, then what need is there for belief... or lack thereof?

Simple belief in god is not the end Goal of those who A/S/K for Him. It is a personal relationship. This process merely starts at belief.

Quote:It only serves to show that most people in the world follow what their ancestors were led to believe, due to sheer ignorance and gullibility.

I do not disagree, for some do. However that is not to say ALL do.

Quote:We are, today, living a great time, a time of enlightenment,

So said buddha about 630BC

Quote:the age of information. It's possible that the majority of the human population today has access to information that was unthinkable just some 50 years ago...

Ah, no. appearently you do not have access to said information either or you would have looked up your facts before trying to preach them.
You and people like you live among the top 20% the rest of the world lives in such a mess the vast majority of the 20%'ers would simply curl up and die if made to live like everyone else.

You have no god because you can afford not to have one.

Quote:that's almost only one generation ago!
The wrong thinking of dozens of generations cannot be erased in one single generation... it's a slow-ish process. People like you will become less and less, because most will have access to the information that correctly categorizes whatever supernatural experiences they may think they have.

OMG seriously? You'd think you'd have checked your facts before you went out on such a limb.

Quote:If there is a god like the one you wish exists, and it does want everyone on this planet to acknowledge that it does exist, then I fail to understand why would such a being hide itself, thus preventing a growing portion of humanity from acknowledging such existence. OH, but you've replied to this before.... if people knew about god, then they'd have no choice, no free will, on this particular seemingly very important matter...

Well, at least you listen some of what i have said. A+

Quote:If it's that important, then I don't want my choice to be based on 1)where I'm born;2)When I'm born; 3)Who I talk to;

i don't thin that choice is yours to make. You are like the rest of us, responsiable for what you have been given. start at verse 14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

Quote:4)other people (I know that these are somewhat redundant, but it's mostly to illustrate the point). Nor should anyone else's choice be based on such fallible and shaky grounds.

Your reasoning has failed you here because you have assumed that everyone is held to the same absolute standard. When that is the furest thing from the truth. read the passage/parable above

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(September 17, 2013 at 4:20 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote: I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

You're propping up your claim by pointing out that the majority believes it. That's ad populum.

no. If I were appealing to the majority of the people and the content of said belief that would be ad populm. I have completely seperated content from the majority of those who believe in a god, from their actual beliefs to answer a question based on the number of believer verses non believers. Because Po-carrots said if there was a God then people would be born to seek him out and worship Him, insisting falsly that we are born atheist. Which again requires a 'majority' based answer. More specifically that 'facts' show more people do try and worship God than those who do not. simply based on the numbers, which invalidates Po-carrots claim.

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(September 17, 2013 at 4:24 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote: I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

OHOOHOHOHOHOHOH


From wiki which got it's info here:

Code:

Christianity                                2.1 billion
Islam                                       1.5 billion
Secular*/Nonreligious*/Agnostic/Atheist     ≤ 1.1 billion
Hinduism                                    1 billion
Chinese traditional religion*               394 million
Buddhism*                                   376 million - 1.2 billion
Primal-Indigenous religions                 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic religions   100 million

Which god was that?

No god specifically. Just god in general. again we are born with a god shaped hole in our hearts. My whole arguement centers around the idea that we have to suppress this desire to worship a god, to make the claims you do. (That there is no god)

(Your wiki source, only stands to support my arguement.) In that we are built to worship a God.

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(September 17, 2013 at 6:49 pm)Waratah Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm)Drich Wrote: I know I've told you at least 1/2 a dozen times now.

Ask/Seek/Knock as out lined in luke 11:
5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

If you receive the Holy Spirit/If you receive a measure of God to indewell you. What better proof of God than God Himself?

I just asked him and did not receive any part of the holy spirit. The above is bullshit.

Read the parable again sport. It tells you to Ask, Seek, and Knock=A/S/K not just ask.

(September 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Argumentum ad populum?

Seriously?

I did not appeal to the popular belief of the masses as Ad populum states.

I said put your belief aside, and look at what the Majority of the world believes. The majority of the world 'right or wrong' believes in God one way or another. which means (for a thinking man anyway.) That pro-carrots caviate (God would make himself known to everyone) is indeed what has happened.

-for only a small minority go against what God put in their heart to say they believe there is no God.

In what way has "god" made himself known??? Just because back water people all over the third world (who make up in many cases the large portion of the religious world wide because of their larger population numbers alone) choose to collectively believe in a delusion does not prove that god any god is making himself known? I know many people in the first world to that say they believe. Most of them say it...on sunday and in the right company. Other than that they are like the rest of us and choose to mask that with a lie to be accepted by this majority you are referring to. I know it is easier to be sheep but some of us have to be sheep dogs and others wolves or why keep so many sheep around.

hate to tell you this but as the fallacy of religion is starting to get exposed more and more that small minority you are talking about is starting to grow at a rapid pace. People feel robbed and used by religion world wide just like many of them still believe. Do not discount those that see through the delusion.

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 4:17 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If everyone "knows" that god exists, then what need is there for belief... or lack thereof?

Simple belief in god is not the end Goal of those who A/S/K for Him. It is a personal relationship. This process merely starts at belief.

Once you're convinced you can talk to something that doesn't exist, you can do anything with it...
Remember how imaginary friends work, when you're a kid?

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:It only serves to show that most people in the world follow what their ancestors were led to believe, due to sheer ignorance and gullibility.

I do not disagree, for some do. However that is not to say ALL do.

I never said "all", did I?

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:We are, today, living a great time, a time of enlightenment,

So said buddha about 630BC

And it just keeps getting better!

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:the age of information. It's possible that the majority of the human population today has access to information that was unthinkable just some 50 years ago...

Ah, no. appearently you do not have access to said information either or you would have looked up your facts before trying to preach them.
You and people like you live among the top 20% the rest of the world lives in such a mess the vast majority of the 20%'ers would simply curl up and die if made to live like everyone else.

20%, huh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage claims it's more like 40% with access to the internet... How many have access to information like the one we had in the 80's? libraries, books and the like?... I'd wager it's the majority of the world's population... or more than 50%.

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote: You have no god because you can afford not to have one.

And what does that say about any god?

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:that's almost only one generation ago!
The wrong thinking of dozens of generations cannot be erased in one single generation... it's a slow-ish process. People like you will become less and less, because most will have access to the information that correctly categorizes whatever supernatural experiences they may think they have.

OMG seriously? You'd think you'd have checked your facts before you went out on such a limb.

Ding!
for the US: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx
for the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_r...cal_growth

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:If there is a god like the one you wish exists, and it does want everyone on this planet to acknowledge that it does exist, then I fail to understand why would such a being hide itself, thus preventing a growing portion of humanity from acknowledging such existence. OH, but you've replied to this before.... if people knew about god, then they'd have no choice, no free will, on this particular seemingly very important matter...

Well, at least you listen some of what i have said. A+

Well now, doesn't that give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside?
No god required! Enjoy!

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:If it's that important, then I don't want my choice to be based on 1)where I'm born;2)When I'm born; 3)Who I talk to;

i don't thin that choice is yours to make. You are like the rest of us, responsiable for what you have been given. start at verse 14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

And yet, I observe it to be so... at least, with the vast majority of people.

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:4)other people (I know that these are somewhat redundant, but it's mostly to illustrate the point). Nor should anyone else's choice be based on such fallible and shaky grounds.

Your reasoning has failed you here because you have assumed that everyone is held to the same absolute standard. When that is the furest thing from the truth. read the passage/parable above

People are held to standards?
I was under the impression people could do what they wanted.... but their minds tend to get wrapped up in their society and... not all societies are as permissive as ours.

any more questions on the OP?

Do we need to continue showing how Bart erhman book fails, or are we done?

(September 18, 2013 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 6:49 pm)Waratah Wrote: I just asked him and did not receive any part of the holy spirit. The above is bullshit.

Read the parable again sport. It tells you to Ask, Seek, and Knock=A/S/K not just ask.

I will highlight the parts for you that tells you what you have to do to receive, not to find or open a door.

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

So as you can see you only have to ask to receive. You do not need to seek or knock to receive. So I say again the above is bullshit because I asked and did not receive.