You cannot believe something in which you simply do not believe just 'to be on the safe side'. That is an absolute nonsense!

(October 1, 2013 at 8:08 am)Darwinian Wrote: You cannot believe something in which you simply do not believe just 'to be on the safe side'. That is an absolute nonsense!

I certainly agree with you on that.

But it does make sense to investigate if God exists.

That is the point of my use of Pascal's wager.

I will state an argument for the God of the Holy Bible.

Some atheists and agnostics do believe for real in Jesus Christ.

(October 1, 2013 at 7:55 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Actually he'll isn't a threat - it's a menu option.

Christians' seemingly endless supply of bumper sticker spirituality is a wonder to behold. I suppose the people who were burned at the stake or "converted" at the end of a sword took comfort knowing that belief was a menu option.

No need to play the No True Scotsman card -- I know, I know: you're not like the bad old Christians. That isn't the point. To think that Hell isn't a threat is ridiculous. "Believe as I do and you won't be tormented for eternity." Yeah, let's see, fries or onion rings today?

Of course, you haven't given me one good reason to believe in this God or hell.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:12 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 7:55 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Actually he'll isn't a threat - it's a menu option.

Christians' seemingly endless supply of bumper sticker spirituality is a wonder to behold. I suppose the people who were burned at the stake or "converted" at the end of a sword took comfort knowing that belief was a menu option.

No need to play the No True Scotsman card -- I know, I know: you're not like the bad old Christians. That isn't the point. To think that Hell isn't a threat is ridiculous. "Believe as I do and you won't be tormented for eternity." Yeah, let's see, fries or onion rings today?

Of course, you haven't given me one good reason to believe in this God or hell.

Jesus Christ warned about fake Christians doing bad things.
That prediction acme true.
One point for the Holy Bible.

Matthew 7:15-16
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Here is what Jesus Christ instructed.

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

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(October 1, 2013 at 7:52 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 7:04 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: If absolute proof is impossible, maybe calculating the odds against the existence of God may work. But any odds less that a trillion to one would be too risky. Even longer odds would too risky. An analysis of the facts will show the odds are greatly against the atheist being correct.

Huh? Calculating the odds against the existence of God? What the fuck does that even mean? This isn't craps. "An analysis of the facts will show the odds are greatly against the atheist being correct"? Really? Am I supposed to take your word for it? Obviously so since you haven't bothered to actually make this analysis.

As others have said, Pascal's Wager is a transparently bad argument. The Muslim can use it as justifiably (that is to say, not at all) as the Christian. And of course you could both be wrong: What if God values and rewards/condemns not on the basis of silly superstitions and bad reasoning but on the basis of intellectual integrity? Then, my friend, you are screwed.

The Christian's last stand: when all else fails, threaten them with Hell. Pathetic.

If an atheist posits that there in some God to defeat Pascal's wager, the atheist has just contradicted them self. So that argument does not defeat Pascal's wager.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:11 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: I certainly agree with you on that.

But it does make sense to investigate if God exists.

That is the point of my use of Pascal's wager.

I will state an argument for the God of the Holy Bible.

Some atheists and agnostics do believe for real in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, son of god? Yeah, kinda hard to believe someone is a son of a god and remain an atheist or agnostic.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:21 am)Airyaman Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 8:11 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: I certainly agree with you on that.

But it does make sense to investigate if God exists.

That is the point of my use of Pascal's wager.

I will state an argument for the God of the Holy Bible.

Some atheists and agnostics do believe for real in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, son of god? Yeah, kinda hard to believe someone is a son of a god and remain an atheist or agnostic.

Son of God means that God became a man through a miraculous birth.

Jesus Christ is God.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:23 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 8:21 am)Airyaman Wrote: Jesus Christ, son of god? Yeah, kinda hard to believe someone is a son of a god and remain an atheist or agnostic.

Son of God means that God became a man through a miraculous birth.

Jesus Christ is God.

Didn't happen because there is no God in the first place.

Problem solved.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:12 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 7:55 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Actually he'll isn't a threat - it's a menu option.

Christians' seemingly endless supply of bumper sticker spirituality is a wonder to behold. I suppose the people who were burned at the stake or "converted" at the end of a sword took comfort knowing that belief was a menu option.

No need to play the No True Scotsman card -- I know, I know: you're not like the bad old Christians. That isn't the point. To think that Hell isn't a threat is ridiculous. "Believe as I do and you won't be tormented for eternity." Yeah, let's see, fries or onion rings today?

Of course, you haven't given me one good reason to believe in this God or hell.

I will be adding more topics.
The first 2 are to show that an atheist cannot be sure that there is no God, so he should be an angnostic and keep an open mind.

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(October 1, 2013 at 8:24 am)max-greece Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 8:23 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: Son of God means that God became a man through a miraculous birth.

Jesus Christ is God.

Didn't happen because there is no God in the first place.

Problem solved.

That is a circular argument.
You used your assumption as your conclusion.

(October 1, 2013 at 8:23 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 8:21 am)Airyaman Wrote: Jesus Christ, son of god? Yeah, kinda hard to believe someone is a son of a god and remain an atheist or agnostic.

Son of God means that God became a man through a miraculous birth.

Jesus Christ is God.

That makes it even clearer then. How can an atheist or agnostic believe in Jesus Christ if he is a god?

Quote:If an atheist posits that there in some God to defeat Pascal's wager, the atheist has just contradicted them self. So that argument does not defeat Pascal's wager.

You're missing the point. Pascal's Wager depends on there being only two possible outcomes: God A exists and x, y, and z follow or there is no god and no one loses. I can posit other possible gods -- with just as little evidence as you use to posit Yahweh/Christ -- to show that Pascal's either/or proposition is arbitrary. I'm merely adopting your framework and applying as little critical thinking and evidence to it as Christians do when they wheel out Pascal's sad, tired old fallacy.

As I said, it's a transparently bad argument.