(October 4, 2013 at 11:17 pm)Walking Void Wrote: I say divorce is sometimes for beat the kids.

You took the low road.

I took the low road with a high brow. Either that or high balls. And the cheese!.. to die for.

(October 4, 2013 at 10:15 pm)Ivy Wrote: If humans were ducks? But, we aren't. There's a lot of difference between one person and the next. If love doesn't happen, then why stick it out?

Really?? You got married before love happened? Freaky.. (surely not)

(October 4, 2013 at 10:15 pm)Ivy Wrote: There are things that skills can't fix. Then there are kids that have to witness broken pieces every day because the parents are too hard headed to know that divorce is wiser.

No, not getting married to the wrong person is wiser. Mr. Right can become Mr. Wrong when he is paired with Mrs. Wrong or vis-versa.
The trick is not to become Mrs. Wrong. Relationships are a dance but it becomes difficult to stay in step when you only see things from your own perspective. (again.. perhaps this doesn't apply to you?)

(October 4, 2013 at 10:15 pm)Ivy Wrote: How can one learn skills to live in peace with someone that won't accept part of the responsibility of fixing a problem?

Assuming your husband is at least remotely sane, what is his motive for not wanting to please you? He probably worked hard to please you when you were first married, so why did he stop? This is the answer you need to know if you are going to stay with him or leave him and try to find love with another. Because something changed in your relationship in the early stages that you aren't recognizing, or else you would have understood the last sentence of my previous post. You have divorced yourself from him already, you just haven't left.

Some people, usually young people, love the image they see in their own eyes and imagine that the other person was just born with the perfect script of how to behave as their spouse, when in fact, they are as clueless as the other. Once the expectations start to fail to be met, the avalanche of bad behavior begins. Disappointment leads to hurt feelings, hurt feelings lead to spite, spite leads to acrimony, acrimony to emotional violence and sometimes physical violence. Both parties are always to blame, not always equally of course, but there is always failure on both sides. Those that do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.
Do you think you knew the real "him?" Did you have a problem seeing warning signs? If you saw them, how did you address them?

(October 4, 2013 at 10:15 pm)Ivy Wrote: Some people talk, others have no clue how to do that. Some people are inclined to make the partner feel loved, others are clowns that love to bully. ..This whole time it was that easy. 8 years of blindness! Tell that to the women with black eyes. Tell that to the husbands of cheaters. Tell that to my broken furniture.

So you married a guy that never talked to you? Was it an arranged marriage or something? I assume it wasn't. So given that at least at first he talked to you, why was he discouraged to continue?

Despite your descriptions of him as a monster, he would have human motive just the same as you do. He may act inappropriately on them, with physical violence for example, but the base motive is normal. Most men with physically violent tendencies are expressing attempts to control their "loved one" out of frustration and insecurity. They typically also have surprisingly low self esteem issues. Was this something you saw earlier or did he develop these issues while with you? Did you ever ask if he felt secure with you?

Have you ever hit him? Honestly? If either of you have resorted to violence against each other, you need professional help. If he is hitting, he has a problem and he needs professional therapy to stop this, the same could apply to you.

I've never seen a completely one sided failed marriage. They may exist, but I've never seen one. As one who has had many courses on conflict resolution and dealing with difficult people, I care enough not to hand you platitudes but rather a push for self introspection, because even if you get him out of your life, you will still be dealing with your own deficiencies, be they behavior or discernment.

I do wish you the best and I hope that you can at least move back to cordial relations with your husband even if the marriage isn't to be saved. For the kids sake at least. Stubbornness is not a virtue and martyrs live terrible lives. Fix yourself back to a good metal attitude and refuse to accept any thoughts of low self worth for either of you. If you argue with him knowing that he is not worthless and the you are not worthless, the arguments will change tone. Propaganda and projected villainy are powerful mind tools. It caused otherwise nice Germans to hate and gas jews that had done no wrong. It can also self propagate in your mind and destroy everything you love. I'm not saying you are doing this, as I don't know you of course, but it does happen.
You can treat my questions as as rhetorical if you wish, as you may not want to give that much personal information to strangers on a forum, but I implore you to stand up, shake yourself off, admit any of your own short comings and try to correct them. Then convince yourself, and maybe him too, that he is crazy not to love someone as great as you and he should want to cooperate with you.

Good luck and keep your chin up!

My two cents: It's really hard for any kid to go watch their parents go through a divorce, but if the relationship between the parents is strenuous, everyone in the household will suffer. As long as you're open with the kids, let them ask questions about it and remember to include them (where proper), I think a divorce can be better in that case than carrying on miserable.

(October 4, 2013 at 8:16 pm)wwjs Wrote:

(October 4, 2013 at 8:13 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote: But it's not about the kids, it's about you doing what's best for you. This is your life and you're not going to get another one, so do what's best for you.

No. Do what's best for you AND the kids.

What's best for her will be best for the kids, because they will grow up with a happier mother.

For what it`s worth I copied some articles and links:

Quote:Effects of divorce on children


Psychological

Divorce is associated with diminished psychological well-being in children and adult offspring of divorced parents, including greater unhappiness, less satisfaction with life, weaker sense of personal control, anxiety, depression, and greater use of mental health services. A preponderance of evidence indicates that there is a causal effect between divorce and these outcomes.[19]

Children of divorced parents are also more likely to experience conflict in their own marriages, and are more likely to experience divorce themselves. They are also more likely to be involved in short-term cohabiting relationships, which often dissolve before marriage.[19]

According to Nicholas Wall, former President of the Family Division of the English High Court, "People think that post-separation parenting is easy - in fact, it is exceedingly difficult, and as a rule of thumb my experience is that the more intelligent the parent, the more intractable the dispute. There is nothing worse, for most children, than for their parents to denigrate each other. Parents simply do not realize the damage they do to their children by the battles they wage over them. Separating parents rarely behave reasonably, although they always believe that they are doing so, and that the other party is behaving unreasonably."[20]

Although not the intention of most parents, putting children in the middle of conflict is particularly detrimental. Examples of this are asking children to carry messages between parents, grilling children about the other parent's activities, telling children the other parent does not love them, and putting the other parent down in front of the children. Poorly managed conflict between parents increases children's risk of behavior problems, depression, substance abuse and dependence, poor social skills, and poor academic performance. Fortunately, there are approaches by which divorce professionals can help parents reduce conflict. Options include mediation, collaborative divorce, coparent counseling, and parenting coordination.[21]


Academic and socioeconomic

Children who have experienced a divorce frequently have lower academic achievement than children from non-divorced families[22] In a review done on family and school factors related to adolescents’ academic performance, it noted that it is two times more likely for a child from a divorced family to drop out of high school than a child from a non-divorced family. These children from divorced families may also be less likely to attend college, resulting in the discontinuation of their academic career[23]

Many times academic problems are associated with those children from single-parent families. Studies have shown that this issue may be directly related to the economical influence of divorce. A divorce may result in the parent and children moving to an area with a higher poverty rate and a poor education system all due to the financial struggles of a single parent.[24]

Children of divorced parents also achieve lower levels of socioeconomic status, income, and wealth accumulation than children of continuously married parents. These outcomes are associated with lower educational achievement.[19]


Divorce amongst the elderly

According to a New York Times article, “More Americans Rejecting Marriage in 50s and Beyond”, in the past 20 years, the divorce rate has increased over 50% amongst the baby boomers. More and more adults are staying single and according to an analysis of census data conducted at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, they say the divorce numbers will continue to rise. Baby boomers that remain unmarried are five times more likely to live in poverty compared to those who are married. According to the statistics, it will also be three times as hard to receive food stamps, public assistance or disability payments[25]

Sociologists believe that the rise in the number of older Americans who are not married is a result of factors such as longevity and economics. Women, especially, are becoming more and more financially independent which allows them to feel more secure with being alone. In previous generations, being divorced or single was seen differently than it is now. This has resulted in less pressure for baby boomers to marry or stay married.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Eff...n_children

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/surv...dolescents

http://grammar.ucsd.edu/courses/hdp1/Rea...i-2001.pdf

(October 5, 2013 at 6:04 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(October 4, 2013 at 8:16 pm)wwjs Wrote: No. Do what's best for you AND the kids.

What's best for her will be best for the kids, because they will grow up with a happier mother.

Wow! Talk about misogyny! Why do you assume that the mother always gets custody of the kids? Three houses down from me a mother lost custody of her kids to her ex-husband. The mother wasn't terrible, but she wasn't financially or emotionally stable. The ex-husband remarried and evidently convinced the judge that theirs would be a better home. By the way, one of the reasons she lost custody was that she made several unsubstantiated claims about his "horribleness."

What's best for the dad could equally be what's best for the kids. What's really "best for the kids" would be that both parents pull their head out of their asses and start acting like adults that have, and live up, to the basic expectations of a marriage.

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Children of divorced parents are also more likely to experience conflict in their own marriages, and are more likely to experience divorce themselves. They are also more likely to be involved in short-term cohabiting relationships, which often dissolve before marriage.[19]

My marriage has outlasted my parents'! And it's still going strong!

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: According to Nicholas Wall, former President of the Family Division of the English High Court, "People think that post-separation parenting is easy - in fact, it is exceedingly difficult, and as a rule of thumb my experience is that the more intelligent the parent, the more intractable the dispute.

Aye, this is true. Being a single parent is not easy. Even when you have both parents around, it's not that easy...

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: There is nothing worse, for most children, than for their parents to denigrate each other. Parents simply do not realize the damage they do to their children by the battles they wage over them. Separating parents rarely behave reasonably, although they always believe that they are doing so, and that the other party is behaving unreasonably."[20]

My mom did this... she kept saying my dad was stupid or whatnot...
On the other hand, my dad never mentioned anything about my mom. He encouraged us to spend time with her, even when we didn't want to go spend every other weekend with her.
So.. yes, whoever gets custody needs to be level headed and keep the adult stress away from the kids.

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Although not the intention of most parents, putting children in the middle of conflict is particularly detrimental. Examples of this are asking children to carry messages between parents, grilling children about the other parent's activities, telling children the other parent does not love them, and putting the other parent down in front of the children.

Luckily, I never suffered this.

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Poorly managed conflict between parents increases children's risk of behavior problems,

depression - Can't say I've had any
substance abuse and dependence - Does a computer screen count as substance?
poor social skills - a bit, but aren't all nerds a bit dysfunctional in this subject? Still, got married and have 3 of my own kids! Can't be that bad...
poor academic performance - Hmmm... PhD in Nuclear fusion... yes, I agree, it could have been better.

(May 18, 1974 at 4:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Fortunately, there are approaches by which divorce professionals can help parents reduce conflict. Options include mediation, collaborative divorce, coparent counseling, and parenting coordination.[21]

medication? Are you serious? F'in idiot psychologists!
Counseling... yes, some people are even more idiotic that psychologists and need someone pointing a better way.

(October 5, 2013 at 11:35 am)pocaracas Wrote: medication? Are you serious? F'in idiot psychologists!
Counseling... yes, some people are even more idiotic that psychologists and need someone pointing a better way.

This is not about medication but conflict management.

In the end I have to conclude that the effect on children is less worse the more mature the parents are at resolving a conflict.

(October 5, 2013 at 11:50 am)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(October 5, 2013 at 11:35 am)pocaracas Wrote: medication? Are you serious? F'in idiot psychologists!
Counseling... yes, some people are even more idiotic that psychologists and need someone pointing a better way.

This is not about medication but conflict management.

In the end I have to conclude that the effect on children is less worse the more mature the parents are at resolving a conflict.

Agreed....
"less worse"