(October 7, 2013 at 12:04 am)Raeven Wrote: When you figure out that bad things happen to good people every single day, you begin to appreciate social safety nets and how only government can facilitate them.

Bold: True.

Italics: False.

I'd rephrase that last bit

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(October 7, 2013 at 12:26 am)Minimalist Wrote: Idealists end up bitterly disillusioned.

And psychotic

You'll have to do better than that. What other entity is large enough to create a social safety net like Social Security or a health care system? Unemployment insurance? Subsidized housing for the poor? A national road system? National park services? Food and Drug Administration?

(October 7, 2013 at 1:52 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: That's because you cannot simply rage war against poverty - our government has not been looking at serious solutions. As for 'why' they haven't - it might have something to do with that web comic thar.

Mark: non-poor targets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Io0OQ2zPS4

Congratulations, you have now destabilized the region... thusly: nobody is 'poor', because nobody is 'rich'.

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(October 7, 2013 at 10:26 pm)Raeven Wrote: You'll have to do better than that. What other entity is large enough to create a social safety net like Social Security or a health care system? Unemployment insurance? Subsidized housing for the poor? A national road system? National park services? Food and Drug Administration?

-Charities- (in the plural)
<insert your big corporate here (Walmart, for example)>

All 'national' systems can easily be taken over by private businesses (roads and parks? *giggles*).

I didn't say that a government wasn't an effective way to get things like this in place... but stating that they are the only method by which any of these might occur is simply false (because there are other ways it might occur... QED and stuff).

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(October 7, 2013 at 1:55 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: Because everyone knows a corporation would never put profit above the health and safety of its workers or the environment.

^Likely not. Can't say never, but unless it becomes a significant concern... AND short-term profits aren't the focus of the company: it's not going to happen.

Well... health/safety of workers is fairly common in small-scale businesses.

Oh, I'm sorry. I assumed efficiently and with the needs of the people first and foremost was implied. Next time I'll be sure to spell that out.

(October 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: You know, if this is going to crush the world economy in a few weeks, it wont just be the American people who will hate the republicans but pritty much the entire world.

The entire world will see past it being simply 'Americans'? That'd sure be lucky.

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(October 7, 2013 at 10:40 pm)Raeven Wrote: Oh, I'm sorry. I assumed efficiently and with the needs of the people first and foremost was implied. Next time I'll be sure to spell that out.

Or... next time don't make a blanket if the blanket doesn't apply? Because... that'd be a mature way to handle that?

'Needs of the people' is pretty goal dependent, also.

(October 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: Now envy me for my goverment bitches!

I've been trying to convince my husband we need to move to Finland for years... Germany has made the list of countries I'd move to. I got totally bitch-slapped (figuratively) by a German hotel worker when we were visiting Berlin in 2003, right after the US invasion of Iraq. The hotel had everyone put their national flag on their breakfast table, but I swapped ours with a Canadian flag out of the shame of being an American. I discovered Germans take the whole nationality thing a wee bit further than we do... I explained that I was ashamed that we were attacking a country on false pretenses, didn't make a bit of difference to the hotel guy. He told me I was an American and I should be proud of that... but I'm really kinda not.

But I recently discovered that if I get a nursing degree, I can move to Denmark. Nurses are on their "positive list," they need more nurses, and the government will aid in immigration if you are one. Plan: Get my degree, learn Danish, get Danish certification, get Danish job, BOOM! I'm an ex-pat. I'd be SO happy :-)

Of course this isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right? I'll dream my dreams of sane governments, socialized safety nets, majority non-religious populations, strong unions... le sigh... Husband says we've got to change the US from inside, don't give up hope and all that... Bah! I'm too much a realist for that. IF they're lucky, maybe my kids will see some real changes... Maybe... and that's waffling...

I'm going to see how much the Danish version of Rosetta Stone costs...

(October 7, 2013 at 10:40 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Or... next time don't make a blanket if the blanket doesn't apply? Because... that'd be a mature way to handle that?

'Needs of the people' is pretty goal dependent, also.

It actually DOES apply.

Not a single example you provided could in any way effectively replace government as a way to accomplish the things I listed. At least, you certainly didn't show how. And it's ok.. I don't think you can.

Charitable food banks here, for example, barely put a dent in the need. Food stamps are far more effective.

That's my point. I'm not saying no other entity can ameliorate these needs on an extremely limited basis. I think that was implied, and you needn't question my maturity over it. Of course they can. But that's what government is FOR. If you don't like what it's doing, get in up to your elbows, no utensils, and work your ass off to change it. Government, properly regulated, CAN accomplish big, important tasks for society. Ours has just gone of the rails. And look around you... easy to see why.

(October 7, 2013 at 10:30 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: -Charities- (in the plural)
<insert your big corporate here (Walmart, for example)>

Right, because it's totally done only for PR and not the delicious tax writeoffs, and they're also done in such sizable quantities so as to cover the entire destitute populace. I'm sure we'll be able to rely on that.

(October 7, 2013 at 10:30 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: All 'national' systems can easily be taken over by private businesses (roads and parks? *giggles*).

I detailed what a fucking travesty this would be in another post and why there's a reason private concerns are not likely to provide good services on these affairs to people on an equal scale. They are profit-motivated, and while they can strike deals, how do you expect they're going to profit from city streets? What, is there going to be a toll booth at every light, can we expect competing road-owning companies to connect to one another, to purchase existing roads? And again, how would they profit from this? By charging the businesses and home-owners to pay fees to use those roads? And what happens if you can't pay it? Is your car booted from pulling out of your driveway? Road repair ain't cheap, you know, and nickel-and-dime income from small localities isn't even gonna make the companies break even, let alone profit in any substantial way. And don't even get me started on a private industry of police and firefighters and courts and prisons. That shit has actually been tried in Pennsylvia. How did that turn out?



Yes. They can be taken over by private interests...if our goal is to completely blow up our nation and send it crashing into the ground culturally, socially, and economically.

(October 7, 2013 at 10:30 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: I didn't say that a government wasn't an effective way to get things like this in place... but stating that they are the only method by which any of these might occur is simply false (because there are other ways it might occur... QED and stuff).

They are the only method that a sane individual or voting population would ever consider. Literalism alone does not make a good argument, Vae. If we always went by the list of literal possibilities in every argument we'd never get anywhere. It's generally agreed upon that you only list the reasonable arguments and leave the ridiculous ones out of the equation. Occam's razor.

(October 7, 2013 at 10:30 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Likely not. Can't say never, but unless it becomes a significant concern... AND short-term profits aren't the focus of the company: it's not going to happen.

Well... health/safety of workers is fairly common in small-scale businesses.

Only because of Federal mandates about workman's comp and mandatory safety protocols. Look back at the Industrial Revolution era, especially in the beginning of the 20th century, if you want a prime example of how little of a shit corporations or even "small businesses" could give about workplace safety or employee well-being without Federal mandates. QED.

(October 7, 2013 at 11:53 pm)festive1 Wrote:

(October 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: Now envy me for my goverment bitches!

I've been trying to convince my husband we need to move to Finland for years... Germany has made the list of countries I'd move to. I got totally bitch-slapped (figuratively) by a German hotel worker when we were visiting Berlin in 2003, right after the US invasion of Iraq. The hotel had everyone put their national flag on their breakfast table, but I swapped ours with a Canadian flag out of the shame of being an American. I discovered Germans take the whole nationality thing a wee bit further than we do... I explained that I was ashamed that we were attacking a country on false pretenses, didn't make a bit of difference to the hotel guy. He told me I was an American and I should be proud of that... but I'm really kinda not.

But I recently discovered that if I get a nursing degree, I can move to Denmark. Nurses are on their "positive list," they need more nurses, and the government will aid in immigration if you are one. Plan: Get my degree, learn Danish, get Danish certification, get Danish job, BOOM! I'm an ex-pat. I'd be SO happy :-)

Of course this isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right? I'll dream my dreams of sane governments, socialized safety nets, majority non-religious populations, strong unions... le sigh... Husband says we've got to change the US from inside, don't give up hope and all that... Bah! I'm too much a realist for that. IF they're lucky, maybe my kids will see some real changes... Maybe... and that's waffling...

I'm going to see how much the Danish version of Rosetta Stone costs...

Posts like yours are why you should be for less federal government and more local and state. I'm personally for less government in all aspects but I can understand that some people think government is a decent thing.

When you speak of Denmark you can compare it, population wise, to Wisconsin. Germany is like California, New York, and Texas. People sometimes fail to realize that central government is woefully inefficient for a country our size, and things would be much better if states had more power. If there was a state that had many of the things you desire with a central government that stayed within its constitutional limits, then you could just move to that state and not to another country across the world. That is the way it should work, but instead we are forcing everyone to stick the square peg in the round hole.

I live in the rural south (I'll wait on the insults for that one), so how many of us want to live here might not agree with how you would like to live.

People say the Mass care is well like and successful. Bravo, state power. That is how health care should be approached instead of at a national level with 314 million people across fifty states and thousands of cities and towns.

(October 8, 2013 at 1:52 am)Airyaman Wrote: People say the Mass care is well like and successful. Bravo, state power. That is how health care should be approached instead of at a national level with 314 million people across fifty states and thousands of cities and towns.

But so long as we're stuck with an unworkably large state structure, the status quo is but one of many options. I personally won't be satisfied until we have single payer and put every single private insurance company out of the health business. However I will celebrate when even this modest attempt is finally fully enacted and funded.