(October 8, 2013 at 4:11 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I'm looking at not being able to pay rent next month cuz of this shut down. I'm on disability. I'd get a job to pay my rent but I'm on 2 low dose chemo Meds plus another immunosuppressant, and my auto immune disease is flaring. I have no family in the state, and I don't have anyone that could help me move my things. This. Sucks.

Got an open room down here.

#justsayin.

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(October 8, 2013 at 1:52 pm)Raeven Wrote: Big problem with your assertion. Corporations are for profit. Governments are not. Or they ought not be. If they are, then the populace of that government is doing something wrong -- like not paying attention. It is true we have significantly ceded control of our government over to corporate interests, which is why we have the PPACA instead of single payer... but that needn't remain the case. And that still doesn't make our government a corporation, however charming it may be to say so.

Right, and its employees don't get paid. Tell me another one

I'm imagining if a common corporation didn't pay its employees, right now. The sight ain't pretty

And yeah, it would be true that it, (not we, maybe you, but not me) allow(s) 'corporate affairs'... it being a corporate, and its employees being paid

Seriously, it's profit is your taxes. This is the only corporation that is allowed to run in the red because you continue giving it your taxes (and paying them, and their 'interests', coincidentally). It's also allowed to extort you, and it used to be allowed to jail you or otherwise make you pay (debtors prison) your fee-ahhh... tax.

Quote:You'll have to show me where I said government was some supernatural force. I don't believe that; I think you know it, and you putting words in my mouth is the refuge of one who doesn't have a sound argument.

No, I won't have to... since you assume(!) that it is 'the only way'. Not unlike Baby Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, and all that. Sarcasm? Meet idiom.

I think your continued assumptiveness is hilarious.

Quote:One of the biggest problems with our government today is the extent to which services are being privatized. Why did we let this happen? Your statement demonstrates exactly why corporations ought NOT be in charge of many things, and why properly regulated government ought to be, instead.

*Still hasn't told me how government is regulated? Check.

How about 'properly regulated' non-extorting corporations?

Quote:Care to show some authority for that view, apart from what would "likely" occur?

Sure, history. You know... *every example of food riots ever*?

http://devsoc.cals.cornell.edu/sites/dev...20riot.pdf

It's kind of been a recurring thing. Prices on food rise and ends cannot be met by a sudden surge of the populace? Riot. Sometimes it's so severe that <government> is removed from power, and prices drop.

Famine riots in particular are nasty things... don't expect we'll be having that anytime soon, but 'you never know'

Quote:I'm not sure, but we may be on the same page on this. I do believe the biggest problem with our government today is corporate involvement. But I don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, saying that government is therefore inherently bad, or that it isn't still the most effective way to address large societal concerns, which, frankly, is a ludicrous assertion.

I didn't say that government is bad (at all). I said that government is a business, and that our current is a corporate, but nowhere have I said either of these are bad (esp. necessarily).

It's *an* effective way to address *a lot* of concerns to a *reasonable* degree. It is *not* the *most effective* way to address a particular concern to the *best* degree

Governments are traditionally 'at their best' in 'the middle years' of their existence. Early government is tumultuous, late government is corrupt. No exceptions.

Quote:Well, have fun, if it pleases you to do so. As you don't know me at all, I think your ad hominem attacks on my demeanor do nothing to advance the validity of your position. It does, however, say a lot more about who you are than who I am.

I think your defensive and distracting sarcasm does you no favors. Would you rather I didn't illustrate such failings to you? I mean, you might never recognize. Self-righteousness is a bitch, man... I know.

Quote:On this, we fundamentally disagree. I think people have the government they deserve -- certainly true in this country, anyway. If enough people educate themselves as to the actual facts and not just take their positions based on the garbage that is spewed from mainstream news outlets; if they follow those facts wherever they may lead and then actually take substantive action, they can change anything -- even a flawed government.

Ethiopia deserves that? Assad? Hussain? Somalia? North Korea...?

I don't believe many people 'deserve' what a powerful group does to them. I don't believe it when the mob sees someone put down, I don't believe it when 'eminent domain' is claimed on someone's house, and I don't believe it when an employer takes advantage of his employees because he knows that he's their only chance at avoiding the depths of poverty.

There are degrees of power. To overcome a wheel-chair bound 90-year old woman who will die tomorrow in an AIDS-related complication... takes a very low amount of power.

To overcome a military power who's expenditure/comparative strength has been measured as the next four nation's expenditures... doubled... would take that amount, doubled (or the same amount used more than twice as effectively as the other). And that's just the military strength, it says absolutely nothing about the political, economic, socio-cultural, and other associated powers of said power. This would likely take more power than you can find anywhere on this earth right now.

Quote:Yeah, I'm an idealist, one who has seen how much even one individual, by themselves, can do. It's much more than you think.

Oh, I'm a pretty big appreciator of them fat grains of rice, tipping scales and shit.

But I'm also appreciative of the other rice on the scale, and they are not without weight.

I've noticed a change in Fox news attitude today.
Yesterday it was like the shut down was no big deal and would be over soon.
Today it's all Obamas fault.

(October 8, 2013 at 3:53 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(October 8, 2013 at 2:37 am)bennyboy Wrote: As a Canadian, let me recommend you not do that. In the end, it reduces the magical power of the maple leaf to protect me and mine. I've heard so many stories of Americans doing this, that I have to assume people in the countries being visited are aware of it.

No. Just no.

Well, it tells you something about their loyalties, eh?
If you're so eager to swap flags, why really keep them in the first place? You obviously don't put too much of a value on the American flag, its not really a national symbol in the States, frequently being burned, and in this case, swapped for the flags of another country by its citizens at the first disagreement they have with the policies of their CURRENT government.

What am I suppose to do? Act like, "America! Fuck Yeah!!"?? Perhaps, if we didn't bomb or invade every country we don't like... Or shutdown our government because we legally passed a form of universal healthcare... Or could actually make good on the promise of the American Dream, instead of offering stagnation, regression, and social immobility as an alternative... How am I suppose to be loyal to and proud of an America that I find deeply disappointing and sinister?

A flag is merely a symbol. In the US's case, what does it symbolize? Freedom? Prosperity? Equality? Well, we're doing a shitty job on all of those fronts. I can only vote once each election, other than that, I'm SOL and just suppose to put up with it. Which I do, I may complain, but I put up with it, because there is no viable alternative. And it's not just me, it's millions of other Americans, too. It's not just one thing, it's all the things. It is cumulative. By luck of the draw I was born here, does that make me somehow special? Nope. Is America special? Nope, unless you count our ability to take a good thing and drive it into a fucking wall.

To the Canadians: Sorry. But I'd do it again. Does that make me not sorry? It's just my feelings of shame and embarrassment about what my country does, far outweighs my feeling sorry for the damage it does Canada's reputation to have Americans pretend to be Canadians when we travel overseas.

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19299-...ss-warfare

Quote:Charlie Munger, the vice chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, said in 2010 that we should "thank God" for the bank bailouts, but that ordinary people who had fallen on hard times should "suck it in and cope." And the CEO of AIG — the CEO of a bailed-out firm! — recently told The Wall Street Journal that complaints about bonuses to executives at such firms are just as bad as lynchings (I am not making this up).

The point is that the superrich have not gone John Galt on us — not really, even if they imagine they have. It's much closer to pure class warfare, a defense of the right of the privileged to keep and extend their privileges.

It's not Ayn Rand: this is Ancien Régime.

And we know how that ended......

VLB, I think you simply picked a big pedantic catfight over something you fully understood I didn't mean, and now you're pulling every tangential argument into the conversation in the hope of creating a distraction from that.

My views are my views, and I don't think it was necessary for me to have to state that at every turn for it to be understood. I am not stating what is true for everyone. I am stating what is true for me. You choose to characterize passion as defensiveness, and I have invited you to do so if it pleases you. Doesn't make it true, and I wasn't being sarcastic. Your continual attempts to make this personal are something I don't understand.

I am discussing government within the context of the US Federal Government. I said that. I am not dragging the governments of Somalia, et. al into the mix. Let's stay on topic, shall we?

By the way, the Federal employees ARE getting paid. Retroactively. They have already been assured of this. And sometimes corporate employees don't get paid what they are promised, either. Remember Enron? People not getting paid become angry, whether employed by the government or privately employed by corporations. Or are you saying that government employees are somehow different?

Based on prior comments you've made, I think the essential difference between us is that you advocate change of OUR government via anarchy (purge, restructure and start from the ground up is the point you made, if memory serves). I advocate change of OUR government from within. In fact, I DO believe the only effective means of instigating meaningful change for the social good is from within. If that makes me a true believer akin to a Jesus freak, I'm cool with it. I've examined other methods and found them wanting -- including anarchy. It's just not possible with the populace we have, IN MY JUDGMENT.

So... let's just agree to disagree. There is no Debtors' Prison today, so I've no idea why you threw that into the soup. The PPACA will eliminate a lot of bankruptcies because it will no longer require hospitals to go after people who can't pay their bills like mob enforcers. (By the way, did you know 64% of bankruptcies in this country are due to a medical emergency for which the debtor was unprepared and couldn't pay?)

Government regulation has been severely gutted in the past decade and some. I have said we need to work hard to get corporate money out of our political system. Right now, they're running the show to an unbelievable degree. I have advocated earlier in this thread that Glass-Steagall should be fully reinstated. That would go some way toward placing some meaningful restrictions back on big business. Dodd-Frank helped a little, but without the Volcker Rule, it's still pretty toothless in some respects. Much more must be done, but as I keep saying, people must educate themselves about their government, how it works, what changed that they don't like (not the symptoms, the underlying causes) -- and then work like hell to change it again. IN MY OPINION.

YMMV, obviously. If you think anarchy is the better way, I hope you're doing everything in your power to instigate it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/05...Class-Died

Quote:From time to time, someone under 30 will ask me, "When did this all begin, America's downward slide?" They say they've heard of a time when working people could raise a family and send the kids to college on just one parent's income (and that college in states like California and New York was almost free). That anyone who wanted a decent paying job could get one. That people only worked five days a week, eight hours a day, got the whole weekend off and had a paid vacation every summer. That many jobs were union jobs, from baggers at the grocery store to the guy painting your house, and this meant that no matter how "lowly" your job was you had guarantees of a pension, occasional raises, health insurance and someone to stick up for you if you were unfairly treated.

Young people have heard of this mythical time -- but it was no myth, it was real. And when they ask, "When did this all end?", I say, "It ended on this day: August 5th, 1981."

Beginning on this date, 30 years ago, Big Business and the Right Wing decided to "go for it" -- to see if they could actually destroy the middle class so that they could become richer themselves.

And they've succeeded.

(October 8, 2013 at 7:58 am)Dragonetti Wrote: Sorry, but the government is not a company, and should not be ran like a company.

Okay, first you are completely wrong about this. By definition of the word company, a business, an NPO, a church, a school, a sports team, a union, and a government are all forms of "companies". Even a casual poker game could be described as a company.

Quote:I am sorry, but you keep mentioning cutting funds, but where? Entitlements are only a part of the government spending, and cutting all entitlements is not the solution. We need to cut and reform the budget across all government departments, close tax loopholes, and raise taxes. Yes, raising taxes on the rich, and stop with the trickle down effect. Defence needs to be cut, and hell get rid of the crazy GWB's DHS (which grew the government by 40%)! Baby boomers are starting to retire, and they will suck the system dry.

I'm no expert, but I can tell you places to look for savings. First look at subsidies such as petrol (we have no such subsidies in Australia, in fact petrol is taxed to the limit). Periodically raise the minimum wage, this pushes up the cost of employment and generates more income tax. You need serious health reforms, for instance you need to take pharmaceuticals out of general stores, and only allow specialized pharmaceutical stores to sell drugs. This will reduce the wastage that the USA has on subsidising medication that people do not need to take, but take because they are given no professional advise when they buy their drugs. You can then reduce some of these subsidies because people are already spending less by not buying as many products that they do not need. You need to cut money to defence to intelligence agencies and to NASA.

I'm assuming that income taxes in America are a federal tax? You need to raise income tax on the wealthy and the middle-income.

Quote:What am I suppose to do? Act like, "America! Fuck Yeah!!"?? Perhaps, if we didn't bomb or invade every country we don't like... Or shutdown our government because we legally passed a form of universal healthcare... Or could actually make good on the promise of the American Dream, instead of offering stagnation, regression, and social immobility as an alternative... How am I suppose to be loyal to and proud of an America that I find deeply disappointing and sinister?

A flag is merely a symbol. In the US's case, what does it symbolize? Freedom? Prosperity? Equality? Well, we're doing a shitty job on all of those fronts. I can only vote once each election, other than that, I'm SOL and just suppose to put up with it. Which I do, I may complain, but I put up with it, because there is no viable alternative. And it's not just me, it's millions of other Americans, too. It's not just one thing, it's all the things. It is cumulative. By luck of the draw I was born here, does that make me somehow special? Nope. Is America special? Nope, unless you count our ability to take a good thing and drive it into a fucking wall.

To the Canadians: Sorry. But I'd do it again. Does that make me not sorry? It's just my feelings of shame and embarrassment about what my country does, far outweighs my feeling sorry for the damage it does Canada's reputation to have Americans pretend to be Canadians when we travel overseas.

Well, what are you supposed to do? True, true, in a country where loyalty is bought and sold with money, the lack of it appeals to your materialistic and pragmatic selves, so you actually feel inclined to yearn for places that actually appeal to your way of thinking.
Is there no shred of idealistic patriotism that actually has a place in your hearts and minds?

Idealistic patriotism, or in my case, nationalism is not about "receiving". We as idealists are drawn to hardships and misery. I too, am not fond of the current government in my country. However does this make me less loyal to my people and my country? No! Do I feel as though I should be ashamed? For my sense of loyalty, and my sense of pride and consciousness is built on an ideal of a nation and a country. I strive towards that goal, no matter in which state the current gov or society might be. You on the other hand, are quick to throw the towel. This is why I asked, if you're so eager to swap flags, why do you keep them?
A flag represents whatever it was created to represent. For example, the Hungarian revolution flag represented a resentment of communism, as the hammer and sickle in the middle of the flag was cut off. Our flag, for example, represents our nation's sovereignity. The red, represents the blood that we have spilled to preserve our sovereignity and freedom as an independent nation. The crescent and moon represent our national spirit as warriors of the faith. If the current government is actually behaving in a way to insult the values that our flag represents, does this mean that I have to hold the flag accountable for it? Does it mean that I have to punish the flag? No! I will raise the flag even higher to show my disapproval, for it represents the values I stand for, even if the government doesn't.

As for your flag, you have stated that it represents a variety of things. The thing is, that it represents them. And if you actually believe in things that it represents, it is only logical that you use your flag for it.
The fact that your country now is not the place what your flag represents, more for a reason to venerate and raise your flag, so that it returns to the values it represents. What good would the donning of the Canadian flag do for you? While you're at it, why not proclaim yourself a loyal subject of the crown?

Your way of thinking is faulty, my friend.

(October 9, 2013 at 7:53 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:What am I suppose to do? Act like, "America! Fuck Yeah!!"?? Perhaps, if we didn't bomb or invade every country we don't like... Or shutdown our government because we legally passed a form of universal healthcare... Or could actually make good on the promise of the American Dream, instead of offering stagnation, regression, and social immobility as an alternative... How am I suppose to be loyal to and proud of an America that I find deeply disappointing and sinister?

A flag is merely a symbol. In the US's case, what does it symbolize? Freedom? Prosperity? Equality? Well, we're doing a shitty job on all of those fronts. I can only vote once each election, other than that, I'm SOL and just suppose to put up with it. Which I do, I may complain, but I put up with it, because there is no viable alternative. And it's not just me, it's millions of other Americans, too. It's not just one thing, it's all the things. It is cumulative. By luck of the draw I was born here, does that make me somehow special? Nope. Is America special? Nope, unless you count our ability to take a good thing and drive it into a fucking wall.

To the Canadians: Sorry. But I'd do it again. Does that make me not sorry? It's just my feelings of shame and embarrassment about what my country does, far outweighs my feeling sorry for the damage it does Canada's reputation to have Americans pretend to be Canadians when we travel overseas.

Well, what are you supposed to do? True, true, in a country where loyalty is bought and sold with money, the lack of it appeals to your materialistic and pragmatic selves, so you actually feel inclined to yearn for places that actually appeal to your way of thinking.
Is there no shred of idealistic patriotism that actually has a place in your hearts and minds?

Idealistic patriotism, or in my case, nationalism is not about "receiving". We as idealists are drawn to hardships and misery. I too, am not fond of the current government in my country. However does this make me less loyal to my people and my country? No! Do I feel as though I should be ashamed? For my sense of loyalty, and my sense of pride and consciousness is built on an ideal of a nation and a country. I strive towards that goal, no matter in which state the current gov or society might be. You on the other hand, are quick to throw the towel. This is why I asked, if you're so eager to swap flags, why do you keep them?
A flag represents whatever it was created to represent. For example, the Hungarian revolution flag represented a resentment of communism, as the hammer and sickle in the middle of the flag was cut off. Our flag, for example, represents our nation's sovereignity. The red, represents the blood that we have spilled to preserve our sovereignity and freedom as an independent nation. The crescent and moon represent our national spirit as warriors of the faith. If the current government is actually behaving in a way to insult the values that our flag represents, does this mean that I have to hold the flag accountable for it? Does it mean that I have to punish the flag? No! I will raise the flag even higher to show my disapproval, for it represents the values I stand for, even if the government doesn't.

Atatürk embarked upon a program of political, economic, and cultural reforms, seeking to transform the former Ottoman Empire into a modern, secular, and democratic nation-state.

Note the word 'secular'. So much for your 'warriors of the faith'.

(October 9, 2013 at 8:33 am)Chas Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 7:53 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, what are you supposed to do? True, true, in a country where loyalty is bought and sold with money, the lack of it appeals to your materialistic and pragmatic selves, so you actually feel inclined to yearn for places that actually appeal to your way of thinking.
Is there no shred of idealistic patriotism that actually has a place in your hearts and minds?

Idealistic patriotism, or in my case, nationalism is not about "receiving". We as idealists are drawn to hardships and misery. I too, am not fond of the current government in my country. However does this make me less loyal to my people and my country? No! Do I feel as though I should be ashamed? For my sense of loyalty, and my sense of pride and consciousness is built on an ideal of a nation and a country. I strive towards that goal, no matter in which state the current gov or society might be. You on the other hand, are quick to throw the towel. This is why I asked, if you're so eager to swap flags, why do you keep them?
A flag represents whatever it was created to represent. For example, the Hungarian revolution flag represented a resentment of communism, as the hammer and sickle in the middle of the flag was cut off. Our flag, for example, represents our nation's sovereignity. The red, represents the blood that we have spilled to preserve our sovereignity and freedom as an independent nation. The crescent and moon represent our national spirit as warriors of the faith. If the current government is actually behaving in a way to insult the values that our flag represents, does this mean that I have to hold the flag accountable for it? Does it mean that I have to punish the flag? No! I will raise the flag even higher to show my disapproval, for it represents the values I stand for, even if the government doesn't.

Atatürk embarked upon a program of political, economic, and cultural reforms, seeking to transform the former Ottoman Empire into a modern, secular, and democratic nation-state.

Note the word 'secular'. So much for your 'warriors of the faith'.

Noted, secular it was, and more imporantly, a nation state. The same nation that formed those warriors of the faith that were responsible for the conquest of the lands that the said secular nation state was built on. For if they did not exist, neither would Turkey. Did he discredit them by creating it? No, he honored them.
This is why we call him "Bashbugh", which is a title given to individuals who have founded countries. Another one of his titles, by which he is referred to usually is "Ghazi" which means warrior of faith.
Creating a nation state based on nationalism requires you to make secularism a tenet, as the lack of secularism brings forth the religious identity, but not much the national/ethnic identity of the founding nation. We don't want that.