(October 10, 2013 at 2:44 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Nobody has to believe claims which are based on faith.

Quote: The fact that there are an increasing number of atheists in (say) most of western and Northern Europe, with a trend being demonstrable throughout the west per se, surely highlights the failures of the religious messages in trying to convert and indoctrinate people and nothing else.

Christianity and faith in general is growing throughout the world in general though Christianity is on the wane in Europe. A lot of that may have something to do with state run churches.

(October 10, 2013 at 9:47 am)Chas Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 7:44 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Not any more than your own. I find that positing the existence of transcendent principles produces a more consistent philosophy that explains reality better than the alternates.

But it doesn't provide any evidence. Explanation without evidence is hypothesis.

When you have evidence of the existence of a god, then I will be able to take your hypothesis seriously.

And exactly what evidence do you have that physical reduction is true, especially since it is so strongly counterintuitive?

(October 10, 2013 at 10:33 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 2:44 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Nobody has to believe claims which are based on faith.

I was born an atheist. No faith required, just a lack of belief owing to lack of evidence.

(October 10, 2013 at 10:33 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote: The fact that there are an increasing number of atheists in (say) most of western and Northern Europe, with a trend being demonstrable throughout the west per se, surely highlights the failures of the religious messages in trying to convert and indoctrinate people and nothing else.

Christianity and faith in general is growing throughout the world in general though Christianity is on the wane in Europe. A lot of that may have something to do with state run churches.

Also to do with increased educational attainment among girls, and the liberation and attainment of greater sexual equality among women. Also to do with greater technological and scientific awareness amongst the general population. Also to do with the general acceptance of Protestant Christian secularism and the virtues of 17th century Westphalian attutides towards statecraft.

Also to do with the cohort effect and the fact that generational declines in beliefs are evident in large swathes of the demographics that have been analysed. Also to do with the various abuse scandals that have been rife in several churches and their institutions (most evident in the RCC). Also to do with general apathy towards most religious beliefs, and the fact that most people in the UK (for example) would identify as a nominal 'Christian' whilst holding no firm beliefs in the truth of any of the messages.

I mean, 'atheism'/non-religious is the biggest growing demographic of religious adherence in the UK census from '01 to '11 up from 14% to over 20%. The recent 2010 National Attitudes Survey puts the figure at more like 50% owing, in part, to the 'official' nature of the national government census. I mean, your own church, the COE, and the episcopalian churches of Scotland and Wales, have seen some of the biggest declines. Methodism is predicted to be extinct in its current form in England and Wales within the next 20 years. The only Christian churches growing in England and Wales are the black churches brought over by afro-Carribean migrants in the 50s and 60s to inner-city areas.

It's not a mystery that the places where religion grows/thrives the most also happen to have large swathes of poor uneducated people that have close to zero social mobility. Go figure, I guess. This is particularly true of Islam and Christianity in the central and Eastern areas of Africa, and in South and Central America.

EDIT: BSAS Survey: http://ir2.flife.de/data/natcen-social-r...=&lang=ENG
2011 Census data on religion: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/201...igion.html Compare 2001 census for greatest results (no longer avaliable online from ONS, but WIKI gives a good outline, and I have all the stats and tables on my PC for confirmation if needed).

(October 10, 2013 at 11:09 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Also to do with increased educational attainment among girls, and the liberation and attainment of greater sexual equality among women.

Which, of course, is why religions tend to oppress women and try so hard to keep them ignorant and pregnant. Most major religions haven't progressed one jot in how they view or treat women, which is one of the reasons why we see so many religious sects of one- most intelligent people can't stomach the appalling treatment of women by their religions.

(October 10, 2013 at 11:14 am)Zazzy Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 11:09 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Also to do with increased educational attainment among girls, and the liberation and attainment of greater sexual equality among women.

Which, of course, is why religions tend to oppress women and try so hard to keep them ignorant and pregnant. Most major religions haven't progressed one jot in how they view or treat women, which is one of the reasons why we see so many religious sects of one- most intelligent people can't stomach the appalling treatment of women by their religions.

Bingo.

(October 10, 2013 at 10:33 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 2:44 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Nobody has to believe claims which are based on faith.

Quote: The fact that there are an increasing number of atheists in (say) most of western and Northern Europe, with a trend being demonstrable throughout the west per se, surely highlights the failures of the religious messages in trying to convert and indoctrinate people and nothing else.

Christianity and faith in general is growing throughout the world in general though Christianity is on the wane in Europe. A lot of that may have something to do with state run churches.

Oh so it is a numbers game? Well, the most popular religion in the world is Islam and that is growing too, so chop chop, convert since it is a numbers game.

Oh and FYI Europe isn't becoming less religious because of state run churches, they are becoming less religious because of the history of HOW religion has hurt society.

---

Also, not as far as numbers, but pace of growth, care to guess what the fastest growing label is? I'll give you clue, it isn't Islam or Christianity.

(October 10, 2013 at 11:09 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Also to do with increased educational attainment among girls, and the liberation and attainment of greater sexual equality among women.

Women had a very prominent role to play in the very early church you know. You're not turning this into a feminism issue. Woman are as equal to God as men.

(October 10, 2013 at 11:35 am)Brian37 Wrote: Oh so it is a numbers game? Well, the most popular religion in the world is Islam and that is growing too, so chop chop, convert since it is a numbers game.

Only if you take Islam as one undivided religion though it isn't really. Besides last time I checked Muslims believed in God. It could be Europe in 100 years be largely Islamic the way it's growing. Fine as long they ditch the political ideology that goes with thew religion. Not so easy to do as it was in the case of Christianity as the political ideology was built into the faith from the beginning.

(October 10, 2013 at 1:45 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 11:09 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Also to do with increased educational attainment among girls, and the liberation and attainment of greater sexual equality among women.

So that's your reply to a very complex and multifaceted evolutionary trait of a fluid society which has demonstrably led to decreasing affiliations in societies that exhibit greater sexual emancipation for girls and women? Do you realise how ignorant that comes across?

I want to hear/read what you think. I made a lot of other points in my post, and even posted some evidence that you can look up yourself. Nothing to say on that either?

(October 10, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: So that's your reply to a very complex and multifaceted evolutionary trait of a fluid society which has demonstrably led to decreasing affiliations in societies that exhibit greater sexual emancipation for girls and women? Do you realise how ignorant that comes across?

I want to hear/read what you think. I made a lot of other points in my post, and even posted some evidence that you can look up yourself. Nothing to say on that either?

*coughs*

Why do you you think we have gender equality, or racial equality or whatever else kind equality you care to mention in the first place? Christian values my friend, the teachings of the gospels and the equal worth of man (including women) before God. Your values are Christian values to the bone.

(October 10, 2013 at 1:55 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: So that's your reply to a very complex and multifaceted evolutionary trait of a fluid society which has demonstrably led to decreasing affiliations in societies that exhibit greater sexual emancipation for girls and women? Do you realise how ignorant that comes across?

I want to hear/read what you think. I made a lot of other points in my post, and even posted some evidence that you can look up yourself. Nothing to say on that either?

*coughs*

Why do you you think we have gender equality, or racial equality or whatever else kind equality you care to mention in the first place? Christian values my friend, the teachings of the gospels and the equal worth of man (including women) before God. Your values are Christian values to the bone.

Bollocks. Utter Tripe.

Counter with something worth discussing or don't bother responding at all.

Seeing as you seem unable to grasp the basic sociological and political points I made earlier without resorting to basic assertions and assumptions, I will conclude you are unable to. 'Equality'. You know nothing about the word, or the concept, or the history of it.

Have fun.