And "Faith" (especially religious faith I reckon, but not only - pseudo-scientific faith can do a lot of harm by being anti-science and just plain false too) can be fucking detrimental.

EvF

(January 29, 2010 at 9:29 am)Zen Badger Wrote: And how often do you examine your belief system?

As often as I can Zen

I just felt that I wanted to amend and add to this list of unproven medical practices.

Vaccines have downsides, and clean water is kinda a misnomer methinks.

(January 29, 2010 at 10:11 pm)Pippy Wrote: I just felt that I wanted to amend and add to this list of unproven medical practices.

Vaccines have downsides, and clean water is kinda a misnomer methinks.

People have allergic reactions to vaccines, and that's it. The instances of a vaccine allergy are extremely rare. And let's be honest here, people can have allergies to just about anything. There's no way to produce something that 100% of the population can tolerate, but that fact that it's extremely rare shows how safe vaccines are.

You have more danger dying from a car accident than a vaccine. Do you not use a car? It is absurd to the highest degree when people insist that something that saves millions of lives daily is unsafe when one or two chance cases of vaccine allergy happens. Then these same people that take this extreme position of vaccines being unsafe and questionable then jump into a metal box that kills hundreds of people daily. It really shows the cognitive dissonance there.

The claims that vaccines cause autism, asthma, and all other random diseases is completely false. They tend to be based on the fallacious idea that the mercury in thimerisol poisons you. You get more mercury in your lifetime from fish than a vaccine.

The best medicine is preventative medicine. We have wiped out polio, a debilitating disease. Measles was on the verge of going away but the anti-vaccine wackos managed to convince people and herd immunity is threatened and measles have been making a comeback.

When a parent refuses to vaccinate, not only are they putting their child at risk, but all other children around them too. Not everyone can get vaccines, especially if you're too young. Herd immunity protects infants, people who can't get vaccinated, and people who were vaccinated but didn't build strong antibodies. So, when you have a certain percentage of the populated protected, it creates herd immunity and rids us completely of diseases. Hence vaccines being the best medication in our arsenal and a strong contributer to the longer average life spans we now enjoy.

Any parent that refuses to vaccinate based on false claims is a parasite in my opinion.

As for clean water, people use to drink water they shat in. Without a comprehensive sewage system the water was contaminated by human waste and other toxins. Our sewage and filtration system makes water the cleanest it's ever been so people don't come down with dysentery. Why do you think in third world countries that clean water is such a problem? They wash themselves in the same water they drink, and therefore poison themselves when they drink it.

As I said before, clean water and vaccines have done more for general human health than anything else.

"Do you not use a car?"
No. I walk.

Vaccines aren't dangerous because they might give us allergic reactions. Vaccines are dangerous because we have outsourced the debate of whether or not they are necessary, whether the good outweighs the bad to the people making and selling them. A great example was this so called Swine-Flu. It seems more likely not that it's almost over that the drug companies have some kind of control over the WHO. So when the WHO and you local government tell you it is necessary, that may be untrue. Taking vaccines that are almost pointless, untested and unchecked because of fear mongering is what makes vaccine medicine dangerous.

Any parent that does vaccinate based on false claims deserves to have a down syndrome child...

I would say that vaccines in general are causing more of the auto-immune disorder and autism spectrum diosrder endemics than they are protecting us from anything real or imagined. And casting an evil eye to others for not vaccinating their own children, because it poses some risk to all you smart people who don't question anything or think for youselves... That is a dangerous line to walk. Start taking peoples children away and forcing them to get medicine with no proven positive and many possible negative effects (in specific of the swine flu shot, I suppose the Mumps one may work)

Or Baxters Gardasil. Little girls and young women are getting a phenomenal amount of STDs, and those may lead to Cervical Cancer. Do we teach the young women not to be so promiscuous as to threaten you own reproductive health? No we give them a vaccine. Problem solved. Until a lot of these young women suddenly become sterile. Oops! OH well, at least you can have as much sex as you want not, no HPV or pregnancy! And don't feel left out boys, they are working to give these same vaccines to males to hopefully stop Genital Warts before they start. Hoo fucking ray.

Go on and on about the value and necessity of these dirty modern medicines, but do it quietly and by yourself. Don't try to force those of us who have a better handle on how the modern worrd works to get you dirty useless medicine because you have been scared into thinking we, the un-vaccinated, are the threat...

I would rather have some shit in my water that Flouronic Acid. And Chlorine.

I disagree wholly. I think that vaccines have likely cause more harm than good since their inception, and certainly in the more modern examples of Pandrexa (swine flu shot) and Gardasil (HPV shot). More modern medical science doing very, very poor problem solving. And topical medication in your water, in the hope that as the fluoride passes your teeth on the way to you stomach, it might brighten your smile. Topical medicine should not be ingested. Or am I wrong about that? More corporate entities lying to us and damaging our quality of life for profit. But keep defending them, they serve you so well...

Sorry,
-Pip

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: "Do you not use a car?"
No. I walk.

So you never get a ride from someone, never take a train or public transit, never flown in a plane? All of which are substantially more dangerous than vaccines. Don't be a smart ass and pretend you've lived an entire life not using any of these means of travel. We all know you're lying.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Vaccines aren't dangerous because they might give us allergic reactions. Vaccines are dangerous because we have outsourced the debate of whether or not they are necessary, whether the good outweighs the bad to the people making and selling them. A great example was this so called Swine-Flu. It seems more likely not that it's almost over that the drug companies have some kind of control over the WHO. So when the WHO and you local government tell you it is necessary, that may be untrue. Taking vaccines that are almost pointless, untested and unchecked because of fear mongering is what makes vaccine medicine dangerous.

This amounts to "vaccines are dangerous because I don't know anything about them."

The h1n1 vaccine is a perfect example of anti-vac fear mongering. They claim that the h1n1 vaccine came out too fast and was untested and yet ignored the fact that it was made the same exact way that the seasonal flu vaccine is made. The seasonal flu vaccine is untested every single year it's given out and it's perfectly safe. Plus that vaccine is based on a guess of what the flu strand will be like. The h1n1 vaccine was far better in that it was targeted specifically to h1n1. The seasonal flu is never so well targeted. The problem was that our methods of producing a vaccine relies on chicken eggs, which makes it hard to produce the right quantities. The only thing the h1n1 vaccines proved is vaccine fear mongering is alive and well and we need to find a better way to produce vaccines that makes it readily available to public in the right quantities. Because of the shortage the government had to put restrictions on who got the vaccine so it would get to the people who would most likely die from the flu, which were children and people with chronic diseases.

Just because you have problems with the way the vaccine was distributed does not make it unsafe.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Any parent that does vaccinate based on false claims deserves to have a down syndrome child...

Nice to know you'd prefer to have a child develop a terrible disease just to prove a point. Regardless, vaccines don't cause down syndrome. Down syndrome is a chromosomal disorder caused by an error in cell division that happens during pregnancy. So Down Syndrome is diagnosed during pregnancy or after, depending on whether the mother decided to test for it or not. No child is vaccinated while a fetus, and in order for your claim to have any merit than that's what would need to happen for vaccines to cause down syndrome. So the fact that you claim as much simply proves you do not know what you're talking about.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: I would say that vaccines in general are causing more of the auto-immune disorder and autism spectrum diosrder endemics than they are protecting us from anything real or imagined.

Large epidemiological studies have been done that do not support the hypothesis that vaccines cause auto-immune diseases, asthma, diabetes, MS, or autism. This is a fact, plain and simple. In fact, as a response to the public misconception that autism is caused by the thimerosal in vaccines, it was removed and studies show that there is absolutely no change in incidents of autism.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: And casting an evil eye to others for not vaccinating their own children, because it poses some risk to all you smart people who don't question anything or think for youselves... That is a dangerous line to walk.

Or maybe the smart people understand the benefits of herd immunity, you know given that we're smart and all.

Help wanted—to immunize the world Wrote:For the past two centuries, vaccines have triumphed over communicable diseases with remarkable efficacy. Yet numerous obstacles have stalled us in our march to eradicate major infections. Objections against vaccination in affluent societies are starting to threaten ‘herd immunity’, which is essential for protection from preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles.

Vaccination is a unique medical intervention, calling for healthy members of the society to understand the idea of a ‘greater good’ served by putting individuals at a minimal ‘acceptable’ risk. Most people agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, whereas the consequences of not vaccinating are intolerably severe.

Source: http://www.nature.com/ni/journal/v5/n5/p...04-453.pdf

Let's be clear, I do not think vaccines are 100% safe, but the risks versus benefits overwhelmingly show that vaccines have save more lives. And for the people that cannot get vaccinated for other health reasons, they benefit from herd immunity. The best way to ensure someone doesn't die from a disease is to make sure they never get it, and furthermore to kill the disease altogether with comprehensive vaccinations, as was done with polio and as we almost did with measles until scare mongering brought it back. Outbreaks are consistently happening as a direct result of parents refusing to get the MMR vaccine. Children are dying because of misinformation. The science is overwhelmingly clear on this, and anyone who refuses to see it is clearly not a a 'smart' person.

So yes, I will put a critical eye on someone who does not vaccinate base on misinformation. If I had a child who is too young to get the MMR and a child whose parents refused to get the MMR comes down with measles and gives it to my infant and that infant dies? You bet your ass I blame the parent.

There is a body count associated with this. People imagine measles as no worse than the chicken pox because the vaccines own success means they don't remember how horrible and how deadly measles is.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Start taking peoples children away and forcing them to get medicine with no proven positive and many possible negative effects (in specific of the swine flu shot, I suppose the Mumps one may work)

No one is taking children away so once again you're showing your complete ignorance on the subject.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Or Baxters Gardasil. Little girls and young women are getting a phenomenal amount of STDs, and those may lead to Cervical Cancer. Do we teach the young women not to be so promiscuous as to threaten you own reproductive health? No we give them a vaccine. Problem solved.

Gardasil is specifically targeted to prevent females from getting certain types of HPV virus, which, yes is a highly contracted sexually, but not always. HPV causes many types of cancer, including cervical cancer. It is most effective if given before a female becomes sexually active. Many woman become sexually active at a young age, and every woman becomes sexually active at some point. (unless they're a nun. BTW that's a joke) This is a plain fact. The idea that getting a vaccine at a young age promotes promiscuity is a political debate and has nothing to do with the safety and efficacy of the vaccine itself.

In fact the debate speaks to the general sexism that still exists today. "Don't give woman a license to have sex whenever they want, they need to be good Christian ladies!"

The question of whether a young woman starts having sex at a young age and contracts STDs has nothing to do with a vaccine that will protect them from cancer down the road. If parents want to protect their children they need to talk with them, explain to them about STDs (Because AIDs, herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis, etc... are still relevant threats) and pregnancy. They need to make sure the child is informed about sex so they have the mental capacity to understand the risks and practice safe sex if they do. Abstinence only education does not work, this has been proven time and again. People have sex, this vaccine protects woman from cancer due to sexually contracted HPV. These facts in no way suggests teenagers can now have sex all they want. The idea is absurd and has nothing to do with vaccine but more to do with misguided ideologies about sex education.

Gardasil Saves Women's Lives, But That's Not Enough For Some People (OMG SEX) Wrote:Unfortunately, this is a cancer which essentially amounts to a sexually transmitted disease. Therefore, many parents are choosing not to have their daughters vaccinated, because they feel that this will make their daughters more likely to engage in risky sexual practices. Essentially these parents are using the prospect of death by cancer to leverage against their daughters' sexuality.

Regardless of whether or not this is fair or useful (hint: it isn't), it's completely ridiculous. There are dozens of bad things that can result from unprotected sex, and taking genital warts and CANCER out of the equation is not likely to make a difference. We still have pregnancy, syphilis, gonorrhea, AIDS... the list goes on.

I wonder, would these same parents advise their daughters to drive without wearing a seatbelt? After all, a seatbelt protects you against death and severe injury if you get in an accident. Therefore, if they do not wear a seatbelt, surely this will be an incentive for them to drive more carefully. Perhaps these parents also advise their daughters to keep all of their money in cash, and carry it around with them at all times, rather than keeping it in a bank. After all, if you carry all of your money with you as cash in your jacket pocket, you will be more careful about not losing your jacket, right?

Naturally no parent would advise their daughters to do these things, because accidents happen. I hate to be the one to break it to them, but the same goes for condom usage.

Unfortunately, addressing issues tangentially related to their children's sexuality apparently causes many parents to lose their freaking minds. Allowing their child to get CANCER is apparently preferable to having unregulated sexual experiences. Not that the prospect of CANCER will make a bit of difference in that arena, anyway.

Source: http://femaletalk.com/news/2009/04/20/ga...le-omg-sex

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Until a lot of these young women suddenly become sterile. Oops! OH well, at least you can have as much sex as you want not, no HPV or pregnancy!

And your proof that Gardasil causes sterilization, please? Don't have any? Oh, too bad.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: And don't feel left out boys, they are working to give these same vaccines to males to hopefully stop Genital Warts before they start. Hoo fucking ray.

And this is relevant because? If someone wants to prevent genital warts, more power to them.

Really, nice hand waving with those last two points, but they are irrelevant.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: Go on and on about the value and necessity of these dirty modern medicines, but do it quietly and by yourself. Don't try to force those of us who have a better handle on how the modern worrd works to get you dirty useless medicine because you have been scared into thinking we, the un-vaccinated, are the threat...

I would rather have some shit in my water that Flouronic Acid. And Chlorine.

I disagree wholly. I think that vaccines have likely cause more harm than good since their inception, and certainly in the more modern examples of Pandrexa (swine flu shot) and Gardasil (HPV shot). More modern medical science doing very, very poor problem solving. And topical medication in your water, in the hope that as the fluoride passes your teeth on the way to you stomach, it might brighten your smile. Topical medicine should not be ingested. Or am I wrong about that? More corporate entities lying to us and damaging our quality of life for profit. But keep defending them, they serve you so well...

Sorry,
-Pip

Bold assertions without any evidence to back it up.

Show me the studies that prove vaccines don't work. Show me the studies that prove they do more harm than good. Show me the studies prove un-vaccinated people are not causing new outbreaks of diseases that we have previously had under controlled. Show me the studies that prove fluoride has not been beneficial to overall dental health. Show me the studies that show fluoride as dangerous in our water.

Until you provide this evidence you are simply talking out of your ass.

Also, as a final point, because I was listening to this week's episode of Skeptics Guide to the Universe, and Dr. Novella brought up an excellent point. He said that alternative medicine proponents don't understand the nuances with risk versus benefit. Either a medicine is 100% effective or it's poison.

Medicines are not magic and they are not perfect. There will always be a risk in taking anything that alters your body in any way, the difference is recognizing what the risk is and what benefits outweigh it.

(February 1, 2010 at 2:00 am)Pippy Wrote: "Do you not use a car?"
No. I walk.

Vaccines aren't dangerous because they might give us allergic reactions. Vaccines are dangerous because we have outsourced the debate of whether or not they are necessary, whether the good outweighs the bad to the people making and selling them. A great example was this so called Swine-Flu. It seems more likely not that it's almost over that the drug companies have some kind of control over the WHO. So when the WHO and you local government tell you it is necessary, that may be untrue. Taking vaccines that are almost pointless, untested and unchecked because of fear mongering is what makes vaccine medicine dangerous.

Any parent that does vaccinate based on false claims deserves to have a down syndrome child...

I would say that vaccines in general are causing more of the auto-immune disorder and autism spectrum diosrder endemics than they are protecting us from anything real or imagined. And casting an evil eye to others for not vaccinating their own children, because it poses some risk to all you smart people who don't question anything or think for youselves... That is a dangerous line to walk. Start taking peoples children away and forcing them to get medicine with no proven positive and many possible negative effects (in specific of the swine flu shot, I suppose the Mumps one may work)

Or Baxters Gardasil. Little girls and young women are getting a phenomenal amount of STDs, and those may lead to Cervical Cancer. Do we teach the young women not to be so promiscuous as to threaten you own reproductive health? No we give them a vaccine. Problem solved. Until a lot of these young women suddenly become sterile. Oops! OH well, at least you can have as much sex as you want not, no HPV or pregnancy! And don't feel left out boys, they are working to give these same vaccines to males to hopefully stop Genital Warts before they start. Hoo fucking ray.

Go on and on about the value and necessity of these dirty modern medicines, but do it quietly and by yourself. Don't try to force those of us who have a better handle on how the modern worrd works to get you dirty useless medicine because you have been scared into thinking we, the un-vaccinated, are the threat...

I would rather have some shit in my water that Flouronic Acid. And Chlorine.

I disagree wholly. I think that vaccines have likely cause more harm than good since their inception, and certainly in the more modern examples of Pandrexa (swine flu shot) and Gardasil (HPV shot). More modern medical science doing very, very poor problem solving. And topical medication in your water, in the hope that as the fluoride passes your teeth on the way to you stomach, it might brighten your smile. Topical medicine should not be ingested. Or am I wrong about that? More corporate entities lying to us and damaging our quality of life for profit. But keep defending them, they serve you so well...

Sorry,
-Pip

Oh for fucks sake!

Pippy, you are simply nuts. The amount of unsupported garbage you've uttered without even a smidge of evidence and the blatant lack of understanding for damn near everything is about as ignorant as you can go.

Your ideology defines the world, not the world defining your ideology. Any facts that do not support it are written out or dismissed with unsupported prejudice and anyone else is a bloody moron.

If there was anything to be learned about tolerance, it would be the act of tolerating you and your narcissism.

Quote:So you never get a ride from someone, never take a train or public transit, never flown in a plane? All of which are substantially more dangerous than vaccines. Don't be a smart ass and pretend you've lived an entire life not using any of these means of travel. We all know you're lying.

I don't own a car. I take the bus sometimes, every now and again I get offered a ride. Usually I walk. I am not lying, I am trying to point out how silly an argument it is that riding in a car is more dangerous than Vaccine Medicine. Apples and oranges.

Quote:This amounts to "vaccines are dangerous because I don't know anything about them."

No it does not. I know enough about Vaccines, the human body, and especially the track records of the companies and global entities (WHO) involved. I am against the Swine-Flu vaccine program because it was a clear sign of fear mongering, of using fear to sell millions upon millions of questionably safe, and wholly unnecessary new medicines by companies that have proven how far they take the bottom line

Quote:he h1n1 vaccine is a perfect example of anti-vac fear mongering.

Was it? I thought that the disease seemed pretty weak (other than in the Ukraine) and that for the most part the medicine was poorly tested, and not available in time. I was not offered the shot until a month after they were available. If there had been wide ranging H1N1 in my city, I would have gotten it. The disease did not act as badly as some had feared, and we are concerned that the same thing that happened with Monsanto and the FDA is happening with Big Pharma and the WHO. The fear mongering is on the pro-vac side, the anti-vac has been here for decades.

Quote:The only thing the h1n1 vaccines proved is vaccine fear mongering is alive and well and we need to find a better way to produce vaccines that makes it readily available to public in the right quantities.

I think it proved it as well, but that we need better international entities (the WHO, other UN groups, our Governments) to not let the greedy and sociopathic Chemical Corps be in charge of marketing new diseases. the overall point is that the swine flu shot, with all of it;s concerns was unnecessary. The thing that makes bad medicine worse is when it is taken without need.

Quote:Just because you have problems with the way the vaccine was distributed does not make it unsafe.

That is beyond disingenuous. Jut because you love the way the vaccine was distributed doesn't make it effective either sweet heart.

Quote:Regardless, vaccines don't cause down syndrome.

Thank you for reminding me that Down Syndrome is genetic, I did in fact know that. I used the example of down syndrome to reference debilitating mental and physical disorders (like on the autism spectrum) knowing that DS itself cannot be caused by Vaccine Medicine. It was kind of an exasperated tongue-in-cheek jab, but missed it's mark sorely. I apologize that it made you think I was stupid and did not understand human developmental disabilities.

Quote:Large epidemiological studies have been done that do not support the hypothesis that vaccines cause auto-immune diseases, asthma, diabetes, MS, or autism.

I fear that the majority of those studies may be untrue. There is a long line of Pharma Corps spending a ton of money flubbing tests and studies (since the new name of the game is not inventing new medicines, but inventing new uses for old medicines (like gardasil) more money is spent on false "testing" and "independent" studies payed for by the corp than on R+D. I would only offer that there is also a wealth of information showing that something is causing a rise in cases of asthma diabetes, MS, and especially things on the autism spectrum. I wouldn't count someone with Aspergers as being fully autistic, but a disorder is a disorder. I have heard that Autism used to be around 1 in 600,000 Then it was 1 in 6,000, then 1 in 600. Now I have heard that in America children born with something on the autism spectrum are about 1 in 200. I know you guys love you wiki quotes, so please scurry off and find the "right" numbers. The point stands is that this is an endemic. Until we find out what is causing a giant growth in auto-immune disorders, we need to look carefully at all medicine and other modern influences.

Quote:In fact, as a response to the public misconception that autism is caused by the thimerosal in vaccines, it was removed and studies show that there is absolutely no change in incidents of autism.

I'm pretty sure that Thimerosal was not removed. Go check the label of the ingrediants of the Swine Flu shot. Baxters Pandrexa had Thimerosal in it. After using it as an adjuvant and shelf life increaser, they did stop putting it in the vials as much. But it is certainly still there. And the argument wasn't with heavy metals in the shot we give to children (which has it's own merit). The argument was with adjuvanted vaccines in general, that a side effect of poking the immune system with dirt (adjuvants) might create auto-immune issues. The problem was the entirety of the medicine and it's uses, not just putting heavy metal residue in our blood stream.

Quote:Or maybe the smart people understand the benefits of herd immunity, you know given that we're smart and all.

Well you smart herd people go take your sketchy medicine. I will have faith in the machine I live in (my body) and it's fantastic and fascinating ability to heal and protect itself. I promise not to breathe on your chemically altered children if it makes you feel safer.

Quote:No one is taking children away so once again you're showing your complete ignorance on the subject.

I am not showing my ignorance, but speculating. If I have an obligation to you (in your head) to tkae medicine that Wikipedia says is safe, but I have strong doubts, where does that end? If you feel the need to force me to comply with your vaccine regiment (isn't it 22 shots before a child is 1 year old?) beacuse my not doing so endangers your and your children's lives (also in your head) based on my failure to hold up my end of "herd immunity", where does that end? It ends with people like yourself forcing people like me and my children to get medicine we don't want to get because (in your head) it serves the greater good. So I am speculating into the future that your line of argument ends with taking peoples children away against their will... It's not that I'm stupid, it's that I can tell the future.

Quote:In fact the debate speaks to the general sexism that still exists today. "Don't give woman a license to have sex whenever they want, they need to be good Christian ladies!"

So you think that the whole 'don't be too promiscuous, have self-respect' line is beside the point. You know, kids will be kids, having sex all the time with multiple partners. Let's not try to teach our children to act right, let's just give them dangerous drugs so that they may be better able to lead a dangerous lifestyle. This is not sexist, unless your the Cosmopolitan kind of Feminist that thinks a woman's promiscuity and sexual activities are her femininity. I am a strong old-school feminist, and the battle was fought for equality and freedom, not for the right for young women to objectify themselves.

Quote:And your proof that Gardasil causes sterilization, please? Don't have any? Oh, too bad.

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/gardasil_q.html
There's one, but I already know you'll just mock and deride it. I don't like posting proof, please do your own research. It is the same argument. The medicine may not fix the problem. The people selling us the medicine might be lying. It is snake-oil, but very very dangerous and widely accepted snake-oil.

Quote:And this is relevant because? If someone wants to prevent genital warts, more power to them.

I think that is completley relevant. We are working to show that Gardasil has not use in young women, and it is dangerous, and what do they do? Try to offer gardasil to young boys. It is called off label prescription, and these companies get sued all the time for it. Prescribing a medicine for a use it has not been fully tested for. And again, gentile warts (hehe gentile warts hehe) are an unfortunate side effect of unprotected sex with dirty people. So we should start with education that if you have unprotected sex with dirty people, you might well get sick. Not that it is OK, and natural to want to have as much gross sex as possible, and that we should medicate.

About fluoride? All I did was type Fluoride danger into Google, and then clicked the other suggestion of Fluoride Toxic Waste. I know all of this already, but it is that easy these days to learn it for yourself.

Try these:
http://www.fluoridealert.org/
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/toxicchemica...ouride.htm
http://www.garynull.com/documents/Dental...oride2.htm
and one that is in the fully controlled media, http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/09/29/fluor...than-good/
Man, look at that web title, fucking long, eh? I like it.
Please, debunk and laugh at my "proof" that I was chagrined to offer. Please learn to web search on you own.

I am just trying to do my best, I just woke up on this planet like the rest of you. I am trying to figure out what is good and what is bad, but we always argue. I really thing 90% of modern medicine is dysfunctional at best, and criminal at worst. You're allowed to think it is great, and feel free to yell at me and declare the famous "people like me" the problem. I am just trying to figure out what is causing the rise in medical problems over the generations. We could be on the same side, but you're a smart Massachusetts girl and I am some loon who is somehow endangering you by not shutting up and getting on board. I do appreciate your post though, I can see you put a lot of time into it. I wish I could say you were right, and I was wrong, and I see it your way now. I truly wish I could.

And to respond to you after word, you're right that some people want a 100% efficacy rate, or it's poison. You're right, and there are also some people who beleive in a god of the gaps. But not everyone skeptical of modern medicine fits into the all or nothing bubble, and not all of us believers are falling into gaps. It is a fallacy that exists, yes, but it is not a staple. I don't have the 100% efficacy rate flaw by proxy, just because I have doubts and concerns about some modern medicine.

Thank you kindly for sharing. I hope to be able to hold up my end of the debate, while not being too mean or stupid.

The,
-Pip