A neat ( and relatively short ) piece by one of their own, one Arthur Ogden, a preacher from Kentucky. Mr. Ogden's willingness to go where the evidence leads...as opposed to our little coterie of jesus freaks... gives him a credibility which they rarely manage to attain.

We can discuss the historical significance of his point a little later.

http://bibleworld.com/domper.pdf

Quote:Arthur Ogden published a small tract, The Domitian Persecution
,in which he stated that he had changed his mind about the persecution. Earlier he had thought that Domitian had persecuted Christians, but, on the basis of further study, had changed his mind. Connie W. Adams, editor of Searching the Scriptures, suggested an exchange on the issue between Arthur Ogden and Ferrell Jenkins to be published in his paper. The articles appeared in the June and July, 1989 (Volume XXX, Numbers 6 and 7), issues of that journal. The articles are published in this form with the kind permission of the editor.

As one or more of the jesus freaks will mention it must be a cold day in hell when I cite a source from "bibleword.com!" BWAHAHA!

Next thing you know they'll be admitting that there's no mass persecution of Christians here in 2013 United States.

Good for him. Glad to see there are still some on the other side that can think for themselves.

(November 11, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: A neat ( and relatively short ) piece by one of their own, one Arthur Ogden, a preacher from Kentucky. Mr. Ogden's willingness to go where the evidence leads...as opposed to our little coterie of jesus freaks... gives him a credibility which they rarely manage to attain.

We can discuss the historical significance of his point a little later.

Or we can discuss it now. Basically - who cares?

(November 11, 2013 at 5:35 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: A neat ( and relatively short ) piece by one of their own, one Arthur Ogden, a preacher from Kentucky. Mr. Ogden's willingness to go where the evidence leads...as opposed to our little coterie of jesus freaks... gives him a credibility which they rarely manage to attain.

We can discuss the historical significance of his point a little later.

Or we can discuss it now. Basically - who cares?

I'm guessing you're implying 'not christians'?

That's a shame, and not surprising.

(November 11, 2013 at 5:35 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: A neat ( and relatively short ) piece by one of their own, one Arthur Ogden, a preacher from Kentucky. Mr. Ogden's willingness to go where the evidence leads...as opposed to our little coterie of jesus freaks... gives him a credibility which they rarely manage to attain.

We can discuss the historical significance of his point a little later.

Or we can discuss it now. Basically - who cares?

You'll find out. The deeper aspects of your bullshit story elude you but you'll soon be enlightened.

Christians, by and large, require persecution in order to fulfill prophecy. Since the persecution of Christians doesn't occur on the scale and with the regularity they need, they need to invent it.

This is not to say that persecution of Christians hasn't happened, either now or in the past - it clearly has. But they seem to have this burning desire to look upon EVERY curtailment of religious expression as a persecution, when it obviously isn't. Simply because your kids can't recite the Lord's Prayer in geography class doesn't count as persecution. Your kids aren't being persecuted when they are being taught the facts about biological evolution. You haven't been persecuted when you are told that you can't erect a nativity crèche on public property.

I'd write more, but I'm assembling my minions for this year's War On Christmas.

Boru

(November 11, 2013 at 8:49 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Ho, ho, ho...ho! Mrs. Claus has gotsa go!

Okay - so correctly sensing a trap our xtian shitheads are avoiding walking down the trail.

The significance of Rev. Ogden's detective work - confirmed by Candida Moss, btw, in The Myth of Persecution - derives from the epistle known as 1 Clement.

In One Clement it states right at the beginning:

Quote:1Clem 1:1
By reason of the sudden and repeated calamities and reverses which
are befalling us, brethren, we consider that we have been somewhat tardy in giving heed to the matters of dispute that have arisen among
you,

For reasons which seem to have no basis in reality xtian "scholars" have traditionally ( I hate that fucking word ) ascribed First Clement to shortly after the reign of Domitian. This attribution is based on the idea that Domitian did wholesale persecution of xtians an act, as Ogden says, for which there is no evidence at all.

There are lots of traditions about Clement of Rome. So many in fact that he seems to be a made up character just like the rest of it. The gist of his writing - again to Corinth...always fucking Corinth...is that he is telling them to quit fucking with their bishops and get with the program. But...this reflects a much later reality for two reasons. First, the earliest xtian traditions are for a quick return of the godboy with his heavenly "kingdom" so you get a lot of this "give your possessions away" shit and don't get married and this world does not matter. When the godboy did not show up people did what all apocalyptic cults did and started changing the ground rules. Ehrman points out that a church hierarchy began to emerge as a concept when it became apparent that this thing was going to have to go on for a while. All of a sudden money was no longer on the shit list and women were told to get married and STFU. Second, the doctrine of the primacy of the bishop of Rome went through a long period of development - culminating in the Great Schism of 1054 but it seems to have begun in the late 2d century with Irenaeus...again.

Nonetheless, xtians seem perfectly willing to overlook the doctrinal problems with First Clement and cling to the dubious dating to Domitian's bloodbath because First Clement gives them references to "Paul" and also the deaths of Peter and Paul. Xtians desperately want first century references to this happy horseshit and are perfectly willing to suspend reality to get it.

But, and this is the importance of Ogden's work, if there is no persecution of Domitian then the dating of First Clement goes out the fucking window and we are left...yet again...with much later shit which being passed off by later writers.

On such a foundation of sand is xtianity constructed.